Ivanka Trump: Politics, Family, Real Estate, Fashion, Music, and Life | Lex Fridman Podcast #436
发布时间 2024-07-02 20:31:21 来源
The following is a conversation with Ivanka Trump, businesswoman, real estate developer, and former senior advisor to the President of the United States. I've gotten to know Ivanka well over the past two years. We've become good friends, hitting it off right away over our mutual love of reading, especially philosophical writings from Marcus Aurelius, Joseph Campbell, Alan Watts, Victor Franklin, and so on. She is a truly kind, compassionate, and thoughtful human being. In the past, people have attacked her. In my view, to get indirectly at her dad, Donald Trump, as part of a dirty game of politics and clickbait journalism.
以下是一段与伊万卡·特朗普的对话。她是一位商人、房地产开发商，也是美国前总统的高级顾问。在过去两年里，我与伊万卡建立了深厚的友谊。我们一拍即合，共同的爱好是阅读，特别是对马库斯·奥勒留、约瑟夫·坎贝尔、艾伦·瓦茨、维克多·弗兰克等哲学作家的作品都颇有兴趣。她真的是一位善良、有同情心、富有思想的人。过去，有人攻击过她，我认为这是一种曲线攻击她父亲唐纳德·特朗普的方式，是肮脏政治游戏和博人眼球的新闻手段。
These attacks obscured many projects and efforts, often bipartisan, that she helped get done, and they obscured the truth of who she is as a human being. Through all that, she never returned the attacks with anything but kindness, and always walked through the fire of it all with grace. For this, and much more, she is an inspiration, and I'm honored to be able to call her a friend.
这些攻击掩盖了她所帮助完成的许多项目和努力，这些项目往往是两党合作的，也遮掩了她作为一个人真正的本质。在这一切过程中，她始终没有用任何方式反击这些攻击，只是以善意回应，并始终以优雅的态度从中走过。正因为如此，以及更多的原因，她是一个激励人心的人，我很荣幸能称她为朋友。
Oh, and for those living in the United States, happy upcoming Fourth of July, it's both an anniversary of this country's declaration of independence and an anniversary of my immigrating here to the U.S. I am forever grateful for this amazing country, for this amazing life, for all of you, who have given the chance to a silicate like me, from the bottom of my heart. Thank you. I love you all.
哦，对于生活在美国的朋友们，提前祝你们国庆快乐！七月四日不仅是美国独立宣言的纪念日，也是我移居美国的周年纪念日。我永远感激这个伟大的国家，感激这美好的生活，感激你们所有人，是你们给了像我这样的人一个机会，衷心感谢你们。我爱你们！
This is the Lex Freeman podcast to support it. Please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Ivanka Trump. You said that ever since you were young, you wanted to be a builder, that you loved the idea of designing beautiful city skylines, especially in New York City. I love the New York City skyline. So describe the origins of that love of building.
这是 Lex Freeman 的播客，请查看描述中的赞助商以支持我们。 现在，亲爱的朋友们，欢迎伊万卡·特朗普。你曾说过，从小你就想成为一名建筑师，特别是设计纽约市这样美丽的城市天际线。我也非常喜欢纽约市的天际线。请描述一下你对建筑热爱的起源。
You know, I think there's both an incredible confidence and a total insecurity that comes with youth. So I remember 15. I would look out over the city skyline for my bedroom window in New York and imagine where I could contribute and add value in a way that, you know, I look back on and completely laugh at, you know, how confident I was. But I've known since my earliest memories, it's something I've wanted to do. And I think I fundamentally, I love art. I love expressions of beauty in so many different forms.
你知道，我觉得年轻时总是同时充满了极大的自信和完全的不安感。我记得在15岁的时候，我会从纽约的卧室窗户往城市天际线望去，想象自己可以在哪些地方做出贡献和增加价值。现在回想起来，我会对自己当时的自信心感到好笑。但自从我有记忆以来，我就知道这是我想做的事情。我非常热爱艺术，热爱通过各种形式表达美。
With architecture, there's the tangible. And I think that marriage of function and something that exists beyond yourself is very compelling. I also grew up in a family where my mother was in the real estate business working alongside my father. My father was in the business and I saw the joy that had brought to them. So I think I had these natural positive associations. They used to send me as a little girl renderings of projects they were about to embark on with notes asking if I would hurry up and finish schools so I could come join them.
在建筑中，有很多具体的东西。我认为将功能与超越自我的东西结合在一起是非常吸引人的。我从小在一个家庭中长大，母亲与父亲一起从事房地产生意。我看到这给他们带来了很多快乐，所以我自然对这个行业有了积极的联想。当我还是个小女孩的时候，他们常常会把即将开展项目的效果图寄给我，并附上便条，问我能不能快点完成学业，好加入他们的团队。
So I had these positive associations. But I came from something within myself. I think that as I got older and as I got involved in real estate, I realized that it was so multidisciplinary. You have, of course, a design, but you also have engineering, the brass tax of construction. There's time management, there's project planning, just the duration of time to complete one of these iconic structures. It's enormous. You can contribute a decade of your life to one project.
所以我对这些事情有正面的联想。但这来源于我内心的某种东西。我想，随着年龄的增长和我涉足房地产行业，我意识到它是如此多学科交叉。你当然有设计，但也涉及到工程、建筑的实际细节。有时间管理、项目规划，以及完成这些标志性建筑所需的时间。这是个巨大的过程。你可能会把人生中的十年贡献给一个项目。
So while you have to think big picture, it means you really have to care deeply about the details because you live with them. So it allowed me to flex a lot of areas of interest. I love that confidence of youth. It's funny because we're all so insecure, in the most basic interactions, but yet our ambitions are so unbridled. In a way that makes you blush as an adult. I think it's fun. It's fun to tap into that energy. Where everything is possible, I think some of the greatest builders I've ever met always have that little flame of everything is possible, still burning.
所以，虽然你必须考虑全局，但这意味着你确实需要非常关注细节，因为这些细节是你生活的一部分。这让我能够在很多感兴趣的领域中尽情发挥。我喜欢年轻人那种自信。有趣的是，我们在最基本的互动中都很不安，但我们的雄心却如此不羁。这种心态在你成年后回想起来可能会让你脸红。我觉得这很有趣。能接触到那种能量真的很有趣。在这样的状态下，一切都是可能的，我认为我见过的一些最伟大的建设者一直都有那种'一切皆有可能'的小火苗在心中燃烧。
That is a silly notion from youth, but it's not so silly. Everybody tells you something is impossible, but if you continue believing that it's possible. I have that naive notion that you could do it, even if it's exceptionally difficult. That naive notion turns into some of the greatest projects ever done. Going out the space or building a new company where everybody said it's impossible, taking on the gigantic company and disrupting them and revolutionizing how stuff is done, or building huge building projects.
那是年轻时的一个天真的想法，但其实并不那么荒谬。每个人都告诉你某件事情是不可能的，但如果你一直相信它是可能的。我有这样的天真想法，即使这非常困难，你也能做到。这样的天真想法可以转化为一些有史以来最伟大的项目。无论是探索太空，还是建立一个大家都认为不可能的新公司，挑战巨头企业并彻底改变事物的运作方式，或者进行庞大的建筑项目。
Like you said, so many people are involved in making that happen. We get conditioned out of that feeling. We start to become insecure and we rely on the input of validation of others and it takes us away from that core drive and ambition. It's fun to reflect on that and also to smile because whether you can execute or not, time will tell. That was very much my childhood. Of course, it's important to also have the humility once you get humbled and realize that it's actually a lot of work to build.
正如你所说，很多人参与其中才能实现这一目标。我们逐渐被这种感觉所麻痹。我们开始变得不那么自信，依赖他人的认可，而这使我们远离了内心深处的动力和雄心。回顾这些很有趣，也让人忍不住微笑，因为无论你能否实现，时间会给出答案。这就是我的童年经历。当然，一旦你被现实磨砺，就会意识到实际上要付出很多努力才能建成，这时保持谦卑也很重要。
I'm still amazed just looking at big buildings, big bridges that human beings are able to get together and build those things. That's one of my favorite things about architecture is just like, wow, it's a manifestation of the fact that humans can collaborate and do something like epic much bigger than themselves. It's a statue that represents that and it can be there for a long time. I think in some ways you look out at different city skylines and it's almost like a visual depiction of ambition realized.
我仍然对那些高大的建筑和宏伟的桥梁感到惊讶，人类能够齐心协力建造这些东西真是令人赞叹。这也是我热爱建筑的原因之一，因为它展示了人类合作的能力，能够完成超越自我的壮举。建筑就像是一座象征人类合作精神的雕像，可以存在很久。我认为，从某种意义上来说，当你看到不同城市的天际线时，它仿佛就是实现雄心壮志的视觉体现。
It's a testament to somebody's dream, not somebody whole ensemble of people's dreams and visions and triumphs and in some cases failures if the projects weren't properly executed. You look at these skylines and it's a testament to that. I actually heard once architecture described as frozen music that really resonated with me. I love thinking about a city skyline as an ensemble of dreams realized. Yeah, I remember the first time I went to Dubai and I was watching them dredging out and creating these man-made islands and I remember somebody once saying to me, they're an architect, an architect actually who collaborated with us on our tower in Chicago.
这是某个人梦想的见证，而不是所有人梦想和愿景的总和。如果项目没有被正确执行，甚至有时也包含了一些失败。你看这些天际线，它们就是这种见证。有人曾把建筑描述为“凝固的音乐”，这让我非常感触。我喜欢把城市的天际线看作一组实现的梦想。我记得第一次到迪拜时，看到他们正在疏浚并创造这些人造岛屿，我也记得有人对我说过这话，那个人是一位曾与我们一起在芝加哥建造大厦的建筑师。
He said that the only thing that limited what an architect could do in that area was gravity and imagination. Yeah, but gravity is a trick you want to work against and that's where civil engineers, one of my favorite things, they used to build bridges in high school for physical classes. You have to build bridges and you compete on how much weight you can carry relative to their own weight. You study how good it is by finding its breaking point and that was a deep appreciation for me on the miniature scale of on a large scale where people are able to do with civil engineering as gravity is a trick you want to fight against.
他说，在那个领域中，限制建筑师创造力的只有重力和想象力。不过，重力是一个你想要挑战的难题，这也是我对土木工程很感兴趣的一个原因。在高中物理课上，我们经常要建造桥梁，并通过桥梁能承受的重量来进行比赛。通过找到它的断裂点来判断它的性能。这让我在小规模上深刻体会到了在大规模土木工程中，人们如何通过技术手段来对抗重力。
It definitely is in bridges. I mean some of the iconic designs in our country are incredible bridges. So if we think of skylines as ensembles of dreams realized you spent quite a bit of time in New York, what do you love about and what do you think about the New York City skyline? What's a good picture? We're looking here at a few. Looking over the water. Well, I think the water is an unbelievable feature of the New York skyline. As you see the island on approach and oftentimes you'll see like in these images you'll see these towers reflecting off of the water surface. So I think there's something very beautiful and and unique about that.
这绝对在于桥梁。我是说我们国家的一些标志性设计就是令人惊叹的桥梁。因此，如果我们把天际线看作实现梦想的合集，你花了不少时间在纽约，您喜欢和怎么看纽约市的天际线呢？什么样的视角好看？我们现在看了几张照片，从水面看过去。我认为，水面是纽约天际线的一个令人难以置信的特色。当你靠近这座岛屿时，通常会像这些图片中看到的一样，看到这些塔楼在水面上的倒影。所以，我觉得这有一种非常美丽而独特的感觉。
When I look at New York, I see this unbelievable sort of tapestry of different types of architecture. So you have the Gothic form as represented by buildings like the Woolworth Building or you'll have Art Deco as represented by buildings like Forty Wall Street or the Chrysler Building or Rockefeller Center. And then you'll have these unbelievable super modern examples or modernist examples like Leaver House and Seagrams House. So you have all of these different styles and I think to build in New York, you're really building the best of the best. So nobody's giving New York their sort of second rate work.
当我看纽约时，我看到一种令人难以置信的多元建筑风格的拼图。这里有如伍尔沃斯大厦这样的哥特式建筑，也有如四十华尔街、克莱斯勒大厦和洛克菲勒中心这样的艺术装饰风格建筑。此外，还有利弗大厦和西格拉姆大厦等极其现代或现代主义的建筑作品。在纽约，你能看到所有这些不同的风格。我认为，在纽约建造建筑，就像在打造最顶尖的作品。没有人会在纽约呈现次等的作品。
And especially when a lot of those buildings were built, there was this incredible competition happening between New York and Chicago for kind of dominance of the sky. And for who could create the greatest skyline that sort of raced to the sky when skyscrapers were first being built, starting in Chicago and then New York surpassing that in terms of height at least with the Empire State Building. So I love sort of contextualizing the skylines as well and thinking back to when different components that are so iconic were added and the context in which they came into being.
特别是在许多大楼建造的时候，纽约和芝加哥之间发生了一场令人难以置信的竞争，两座城市都在争夺“天空的霸主地位”。一开始是芝加哥率先建起摩天大楼，然后纽约在高度上超越，建造了帝国大厦，创造了更高的天际线。我喜欢将这些天际线放在历史背景中去理解，回顾那些经典建筑被加入到城市轮廓中的时刻，以及它们诞生的背景和意义。
I got to ask you about this. There's a pretty cool page that I've been following on X architecture and tradition and they celebrate sort of traditional schools of architecture. And you mentioned Gothic, the tapestry. This is in Chicago, the Tribune Tower or Chicago. So what do you think about that sort of the old and the new mix together? Do you like Gothic? I think it's hard to look at something like the Tribune Tower and not be completely in awe. Like this is an unbelievable building. Look at those buttresses and you've got gargoyles hanging off of it.
我想问你这个问题。我一直在关注一个非常有意思的页面，他们讨论的是X建筑和传统，他们庆祝某种传统的建筑形式。你提到了哥特式建筑和壁挂。这个在芝加哥的Tribune Tower怎么样？所以你怎么看这种新旧混合的风格？你喜欢哥特式建筑吗？我觉得很难不对像Tribune Tower这样的建筑感到惊叹。那真是太不可思议了。看看那些扶壁，还有那些悬挂在建筑上的怪兽像。
And you know, this style was reminiscent of the cathedrals of Europe, which was very kind of in vogue in like the 1920s here in here in America. Actually, I would mention the Woolworths Tower before. The Woolworths Tower was actually referred to as the Cathedral of Commerce. And because it also was in that Gothic style. So this was built maybe a decade before the Tribune Building. But the Tribune Building to me is almost not replicable. It personally really resonates with me because one of the first projects I ever worked on was building Trump Chicago, which was this beautiful, elegant, super modern, all-glass skyscraper right across the way. So it was right across the river. So I would look out the windows as it was under construction or be standing quite literally on rebar of the building looking out at the Tribune and incredibly inspired.
你知道，这种风格让人联想到欧洲的大教堂，这在20世纪20年代的美国非常流行。其实，我之前提到过伍尔沃斯大楼。伍尔沃斯大楼实际上被称为“商业大教堂”，因为它也是那种哥特式风格。所以它可能比论坛报大厦早建成十年。但对我来说，论坛报大厦几乎是无法复制的，它让我感触颇深，因为我参与的第一个项目之一就是建造芝加哥特朗普大厦，这是一座漂亮、优雅、超现代的全玻璃摩天大楼，就在河对面。在施工期间，我经常透过窗户望向论坛报大厦，或者站在施工时的钢筋上，远眺论坛报大厦，被它深深地激励着。
And now the reflective glass of the building reflects back not only the river, but also the Tribune Building and other buildings on Michigan Avenue. Do you like it when the glass, the reflective properties of the glass as part of the architecture? I think it depends. Like they have super reflective glass that sometimes doesn't work. It's distracting. And I think it's one component of sort of a composition that comes together. I think in this case, the glass on Trump Chicago is very beautiful. It was designed by Adrian Smith of Skidmore Owings and Marilla, a major architecture firm who actually did the Burj Khalifa in Dubai, which is I think an awe-inspiring example of modern architecture. But glass is tricky. You have to get the shade, right? You know, some glass has a lot of iron in it and get super green. And that's a choice. And sometimes you have more blue properties, blue silver like you see here, but it's part of the character.
现在，这栋大楼的反光玻璃不仅反射出河流的景象，还反射出论坛报大楼和密歇根大街上的其他建筑。你喜欢玻璃作为建筑的一部分，具有反光的特性吗？我觉得这要看情况。有时候，他们会用超强反光的玻璃，但效果不佳，反而让人分心。我认为这是整体构图的一部分。在这个案例中，特朗普芝加哥大楼上的玻璃非常漂亮。它是由Adrian Smith设计的，这位建筑师来自大名鼎鼎的Skidmore Owings and Merrill建筑事务所，他们还设计了迪拜的哈利法塔。我认为那是现代建筑的一个令人惊叹的例子。但玻璃的使用很棘手，你必须选择合适的色调。有些玻璃含有大量的铁，因此呈现出深绿色，那是一种选择。有时你会看到更偏蓝色或蓝银色的特性，就像你在这里看到的那样，这是建筑个性的一部分。
How do you know what it's actually going to look like when it's done? Like is it possible to imagine that? Because it feels like there's so many variables. I think so. I think if you have a vivid imagination, if you sit with it, and then if you also go beyond the rendering, right, you have to you have to live with the materials. So you don't build a 92-story building, glass curtain wall, and not deeply examine the actual curtain wall before purchasing it. So you have to spend a lot of time with the actual materials, not just the beautiful sort of artistic renderings, which can be incredibly misleading. The goal is actually that the end result is much, much more compelling than what the architect or artist rendered. But oftentimes, that's very much not the case.
你怎么知道完成后它实际上会是什么样子呢？像是能想象出来吗？因为感觉有很多变量。我想可以的。我认为如果你有丰富的想象力，仔细思考一下，并且不仅仅依赖效果图，你还需要真正了解材料。那么，你不会在建造一栋92层的玻璃幕墙大楼时，不认真研究实际的幕墙材料就购买。所以你需要花很多时间在真实的材料上，而不仅仅是那些看似漂亮但可能误导人的效果图。目标其实是让最终的结果比建筑师或艺术家呈现的更加吸引人。但很多时候，事实并非如此。
Sometimes also you mention context. Sometimes I'll see renderings of buildings. I'm like, wait, what about the building right to the left of it that's blocking 80% of its views of the, you know, the architects will remove things that are inconvenient. They'll say, so you have to be rooted in reality. And I love the notion of living with the materials in contrast to living in the imagined world of the drawings. So both are probably important because you have to dream the thing to existence, but you also have to be rooted in like what things actually going to look like in the context of everything else.
有时候你也会提到背景。有时我会看到建筑的效果图，我会想，等等，那左边挡住它80%视野的建筑呢？建筑师们会把不方便的东西移除。他们会说，你必须根植于现实。我喜欢使用材料生活的概念，与生活在想象世界中的图纸形成对比。所以两者可能都很重要，因为你需要通过梦想让事物存在，但同时也必须扎根于它在整体背景中的实际样子。
One of the underlying principles of the pages just mentioned, and I hear folks mention this a lot is that modern architectures kind of boring, that it lacks soul and beauty. And you just spoke with admiration for both modern and for gothic for older architectures. So do you think there's truth that the modern architecture is boring? I'm living in Miami currently. So I see a lot of super uninspired glass boxes on the waterfront, but I think exceptional things shouldn't be the norm. They're typically rare. And I think in modern architecture you find an abundance of amazing examples of super compelling and innovative buildings of science. I mean, I mentioned the Burj Khalifa. It is awe-inspiring. This is an unbelievably striking example of modern architecture. You look at some older examples, the city opera house.
刚才提到的页面背后有一个基本原则，这也是我经常听到人们提到的一点：现代建筑有些无聊，缺乏灵魂和美感。你刚才对现代建筑和哥特式等老建筑都表示了钦佩。你认为现代建筑确实无聊吗？我目前住在迈阿密，这里在滨水区有很多没有灵感的玻璃盒子建筑，但我认为，杰出的东西不应该成为常态，它们通常是罕见的。在现代建筑中，你会发现大量引人注目和创新的科学建筑。我提到了哈利法塔，它令人叹为观止，是现代建筑的一个令人惊艳的例子。再看看一些较老的例子，比如城市歌剧院。
So I think there's unbelievable, there you go. I mean, that's like a needle in the sky. Yeah, reaching out to the stars. It's huge. And in the context of a city where there's a lot of height. So it's unbelievable. But I think one of the things that's probably exciting me the most about architecture right now is the innovation that's happening with an you know, there's example of robotic fabrication. There's 3D printing. Your friend and who you introduced me to not too long ago, Nari Oxman, which he's doing at the intersection of biology and technology and thinking about how to create more sustainable development practices quite literally trying to create materials that will biodegrade back into the earth.
所以，我认为这真是难以置信。就是说，它就像天空中的一根针，伸手可及星辰。它很宏伟，尤其是在一个高楼林立的城市背景下，这简直让人无法置信。但我现在对建筑最感兴趣的一点可能是创新。有一个例子是机器人制造，还有3D打印。而你不久前介绍给我的朋友Nari Oxman，她正在生物学和技术的交叉点上进行研究，设想如何创造更加可持续的发展实践，实际上就是尝试创造能自然降解回归地球的材料。
I think there's something really cool happening now with the rediscovery of ancient building techniques. So you have self-healing concrete that was used by the Romans. An art and a practice of using volcanic ash and lime that's now being rediscovered and is more critical than ever as we think about how much of our infrastructure relies on concrete and how much of that is failing on the most basic level. So I think actually it's a really, really exciting time for innovation and architecture. And I think there are some incredible examples of modern design that are really exciting. But generally, I think Roosevelt said that comparison is the thief of joy.
我觉得，现在重新发现古代建筑技术是一件非常酷的事情。比如，罗马人曾使用过的自愈混凝土。那是一种使用火山灰和石灰的艺术和实践，现在被重新发现，而当我们想到我们基础设施有多大程度依赖混凝土，以及这些设施中有多少在最基本的层面上失效时，这项技术显得尤为重要。所以，我认为实际上这是一个建筑和创新领域非常激动人心的时代。而且我认为现代设计中有一些令人惊叹的例子也非常令人兴奋。但总的来说，我觉得罗斯福说过，比较是偷走快乐的小偷。
So it's hard. You know, you look at the Tribune building. You look at some of these iconic structures. One of the buildings that I'm most proud to have worked on was the historical post office building in Washington, D.C. You look at a building like that and it feels like it has no equal. Also, there's a psychological element where people tend to want to complain about the new and celebrate the old. It's just a history of time. So people are always skeptical and concerned about change.
所以这很难。你知道的，你看看《论坛报》的大楼，再看看其他一些标志性的建筑。我最自豪参与建造的一座建筑是位于华盛顿特区的历史邮局建筑。你看看这样一个建筑，就会觉得它独一无二。另外，从心理层面上来说，人们往往倾向于抱怨新的东西，而对旧的东西赞赏有加。这是一种历史惯性。因此，人们总是对变化持怀疑态度并心存担忧。
And it's true that there's a lot of stuff that's new that's not good. It's not going to last. It's not going to stand the test of time. But some things will. And there's just like a modern art, there's a modern music. There's going to be artists that stand the test of time. And we'll later look back and celebrate them. Those are the good times. When you just step back, what do you love about architecture? Is it the beauty? Is it the function? I'm most emotionally drawn, obviously, to the beauty.
确实，有很多新的东西并不好，无法长久，不会经得起时间的考验。但有些东西会留下来。就像有现代艺术一样，也有现代音乐；总会有一些艺术家经得起时间考验，今后我们会回过头来庆祝他们。那些就是美好的时光。当你退一步思考时，你爱建筑的是什么？是它的美吗？是它的功能吗？显然，我情感上最被它的美所吸引。
But I think as somebody who's built things, I really believe that the form has to follow the function. There's nothing uglier than a space that is ill-conceived, that otherwise it's decoration. And I think that after that initial reaction to seeing something that's aesthetically really pleasing to me when I look at a building or a project, I love sort of thinking about how it's being used. So having been able to build so many things in my career and work on so many incredible projects, I mean, it's really, really rewarding after the fact to have somebody come up to you and tell you that they got engaged in the lobby of your building or they got married in the ballroom and share with you some of those experiences.
我觉得，作为一个从事建筑工作的人，我坚信形式必须服务于功能。没有什么比一个设计不当的空间更难看的了，那只是装饰而已。而我在看到一栋建筑或一个项目的最初视觉冲击后，更喜欢思考它是如何被使用的。在我的职业生涯中，有机会参与建设如此多的事物和令人难以置信的项目，实在是非常值得。当有人走过来告诉我，他们在我设计的大楼大堂求婚，或在宴会厅结婚，并与我分享他们的体验时，这种感觉真是太棒了。
So to me, that's equally as beautiful. The use cases for these unbelievable projects. But I think it's all of it. I love that you've got the construction and you've got the design and you've got the interior design and you've got the financing elements, the marketing elements. And it's all wrapped up in this one effort. So to me, it's exciting to sort of flex in all those different ways. Yeah, like you said, as dreams realized, hard work realized, I mean, probably on the bridge side is why I love the function.
对我来说，这同样美妙。这些令人难以置信的项目的实际应用案例让我感到惊叹。但我认为，关键在于这一切的综合。我喜欢这样的项目：它们包含了建筑、设计、室内设计，还有融资和市场推广等元素，所有这些都汇聚在一起。对我来说，能够在这些不同的领域中施展才华，真的让人振奋。正如你所说，就像梦想成真，努力得到回报。我想，这也是我对桥梁建设功能情有独钟的原因。
In terms of function being primary, you just think of the millions of bridges. Go down. You had look at that. Yeah, this is devil's bridge in Germany. Yeah, I wouldn't say it's like the most practical design. But look how beautiful that is. Yeah, so this is probably, well, we don't know. We need to interview some people whether the function holds up, but in terms of beauty and then we're talking about using the water for the reflection and the shape that creates, I mean, there's an elegance, the shape of a bridge.
在功能优先方面，你可以想想看成千上万的桥。继续往下看，你得看看那个。是的，这是德国的魔鬼桥。我不会说这是最实用的设计。但是看看它有多美啊。是的，所以这可能——好吧，我们不知道。我们需要采访一些人来确定其功能是否保持良好。然而，从美学角度来看，我们在谈论利用水面反射创造出的形状，我的意思是，桥的形状充满了优雅。
See, it's interesting that they call it devil's bridge, because to me, this is very ethereal. You know, I think about the ring, the circle, life. There's nothing about this that makes me feel maybe they're just being ironic in the name. That function's really flawed. Yeah, exactly. Maybe nobody's ever successfully crossed the bridge. Yeah. But I mean, to me, there's just, I kind of, I love looking at bridges because of the function, it's the Brooklyn bridge or the Golden Gate bridge.
你看，很有趣的是，他们把它称为“魔鬼桥”，但对我来说，这座桥给人一种超凡脱俗的感觉。你知道，我会想到圆环、圆圈、生命。这样的名称让我觉得可能他们只是用了反讽的手法。这个名字的功能实在是有点缺陷。没错，可能从来没有人成功地通过这座桥。但对我来说，我确实喜欢看桥，因为它们的功能，不论是布鲁克林大桥还是金门大桥，都很吸引我。
I mean, those are probably my favorites in the United States. Just in a city to be able to look out and see the skyline combined with the suspension bridge and thinking of all the millions of cars that pass like the busyness like us humans getting together and going to work, building cool stuff and just the bridge kind of represents the turmoil and the busyness of a city as it creates. It's cool. And the connectivity as well.
我的意思是，那些可能是我在美国最喜欢的景观。在一个城市里，能够眺望天际线与悬索桥的结合，并想到数百万辆车经过，那种繁忙就像是我们人类聚集在一起去工作、创造酷炫的东西。桥就像是城市创造过程中纷乱与忙碌的象征，非常酷。而且它还代表了连接性。
Yeah. The network of roads all come together. So there, the bridge is the ultimate combination of function and beauty. Yeah. I remember when I was first learning about bridges studying the cable stay versus the suspension bridge. And I mean, you actually built many replicas. So I'm sure you'll have a point of view on this, but they're, they really are so beautiful. And you mentioned the Brooklyn bridge, but growing up in New York, that was as much a part of the architectural story and tapestry of that skyline as any building that's seen in it.
好的。道路网络都在这里汇聚。而桥梁就是功能与美的完美结合。我记得我最初学习桥梁知识时，研究了斜拉桥和悬索桥。我其实建过很多模型，所以我相信你对此会有自己的看法。它们确实非常美丽。你提到了布鲁克林大桥，在纽约长大的人，会认为它和天际线中的任何建筑一样，是建筑故事和图景中的重要部分。
What in general is your philosophy, philosophy of design and building in architecture? Well, some of the most recent projects I worked on prior to government service were the old post office building and almost simultaneously Trump, D'Areal and Miami. So these were both to just massive undertakings, both redevelopments, which in a lot of cases having worked on ground up construction redevelopment projects are in a lot of ways much more complicated because you have existing attributes, but also a lot of limitations. You have to work within, especially when you're repurposing a use. So, so this, the old post office building on Pennsylvania Avenue was so beautiful. It's unbelievable. So this was a Romanesque revival building built in the 1890s on America's Main Street to symbolize American grandshire. And at the time there were post office being built in in the style across the country, but this being really the defining one.
“总体来说，您在建筑设计和建造方面的理念是什么？”
“在进入政府服务之前，我参与的最新项目包括旧邮政大楼以及几乎同时进行的特朗普、多拉尔和迈阿密项目。这些都是非常庞大的改造工程。相比从零开始的建筑项目，改造项目在很多方面往往更加复杂，因为你要处理已有的建筑特点，但同时也面临很多限制，尤其是在改变建筑用途时。宾夕法尼亚大道上的旧邮政大楼非常美丽，令人难以置信。这是一座罗马式复兴风格的建筑，建于19世纪90年代，位于美国的主要街道上，象征着美国的宏伟。在那个时代，全国各地都在建类似风格的邮政大楼，但这座建筑则成为了其中的代表作。”
Still to this day, the tallest habitable structure in Washington, the tallest structure being the monument, the nation's only vertical park, which is that clock tower, but you've got these thick granite walls, those carved granite turrets, just just an unbelievable building. You've got this massive atrium that runs through the whole center of it that is is topped with glass. So having the opportunity to to spearhead a project like that was was so exciting and actually was my first renovation project. So I came to it with a tremendous amount of energy, vigor and humility about how to do it properly and sharing I had all the right people. We had countless federal and local government agencies that would oversee every single decision we made. But in advance of even having the opportunity to do it, there was a close to two-year request for proposal like a process that was put out by the General Services Administration.
迄今为止，华盛顿最高的可居住建筑是纪念碑，同时这个钟楼也被称为全国唯一的垂直公园。这座建筑拥有厚实的花岗岩墙和雕刻精美的花岗岩转角塔楼，的确令人惊叹。在建筑的中心，有一个巨大的中庭，上面覆盖着玻璃。我有机会带领这个项目，非常激动，这实际上也是我的第一个翻新项目。我怀着巨大的热情、活力和谦逊来处理这个项目，并确保我有合适的团队支持我们。我们与无数的联邦和地方政府机构合作，他们会监督我们所做的每个决定。在得到这个机会之前，美国总务管理局进行了一项长达近两年的招标过程。
So it was this really arduous government procurement process that we were competing against so many different people for the opportunity, which a lot of people said it was a gigantic waste of time, but I looked at that and I think so did a lot of the other bitters and say it's worth trying to put the best vision forward. So you fell in love with this project? I fell in love. Yeah. So is there some interesting details about what it takes to do renovation? Is there about some of the challenges or opportunities? Because you want to maintain the beauty of the old. Yeah. And now like upgrade the functionality I guess and maybe modernize some aspects of it without destroying what made the building magical in the first place. So I think the greatest asset was already there. The exterior of the building, which we meticulously restored and any addition to it had to be done very gently in terms of any signage additions and the interior spaces were completely dilapidated.
所以这实际上是一个非常艰难的政府采购过程，我们在这个过程中与许多人竞争。很多人都说这是浪费时间，但我和其他许多投标者一样，认为值得努力展示出最佳的愿景。你爱上了这个项目？是的，我爱上了。这在翻新工作中有什么有趣的细节吗？是否有一些挑战或机遇？因为你想保持建筑的旧有美感，同时又想提升它的功能，并且也许还想在某些方面进行现代化改造，但又不能破坏建筑最初的魅力。我认为最宝贵的资产就是已经存在的东西，即建筑的外观，我们细致地进行修复，任何附加的东西都需要在标牌和其附加物上进行非常温和的处理，而室内空间则完全破旧不堪。
It had been in a post office then we was used for a really rundown food court and government office spaces. It was actually losing six million dollars a year when we got the concession to build it and when we won and and became one of I think a great example of public-private partnerships working together. But the I think the biggest challenge in having such a radical use conversion is just how you lay it out. So the amount of time I would get on that, et cetera, twice a week, three times a week to spend day trips down in Washington and we would walk every single inch of the building, laying out the floor plans debating over the configuration of a room. There were almost 300 rooms and there were almost 300 layouts. So nothing could be repeated. Whereas when you're building from scratch, you have a box and you decide where you want to add potential elements and you kind of can stack the floor plan all the way up.
它曾经是一个邮局，后来被用作一个非常破旧的美食广场和政府办公空间。这个地方在我们获得特许权进行建设的时候，每年实际上亏损六百万美元。最终我们成功赢得了项目，成为了一个我认为非常优秀的公私合作的案例。但我觉得在进行如此大规模的用途转换时，最大的挑战就是如何规划布局。因此，我每周会有两到三次的机会，专门去华盛顿进行一天的实地考察，走遍建筑的每一个角落，讨论房间的布局设计。那里有近300个房间，几乎每个房间的布局都不同。而如果从零开始建造，一个新的建筑就会像一个空白的盒子，我们可以自由决定在哪里增加元素，并能以层叠的方式设计楼面的平面图。
But when you're working within a building like this, every single room was different. You see the setbacks or the setback then required you to move the plumbing. So there was no, it was really a labor of love and to do something like this and that's why I think renovation. We had it with Dural as well. It was 700 rooms over 650 acres of property. And so every single unit was was very different and complicated, not as complicated in some ways. The scale of it was so massive, but not as complicated as the old post office, but it required a level of precision. And I think in real estate, you have a lot of people who design on plan. And a lot of people who are in the business of sort of acquiring and flipping. So it's more financial engineering than it is building. And they don't spend the time sort of sweating these details.
当你在这样的一栋楼工作时，每个房间都是不一样的。你会发现，某些地方的布局变动会要求你重新安排管道。所以，这真的是一项充满爱的工作。做这样的事让我想到装修。我们在德拉尔（Dural）也遇到过类似的情况。那时，我们有700个房间分布在650英亩的土地上。每个单元都非常不同且复杂，虽然在某些方面不如旧邮局复杂，但它的规模非常庞大，且需要很高的精确度。我认为在房地产行业，有很多人是依照图纸进行设计，还有很多人是在从事收购和转售的业务，所以他们更注重财务操作而非建筑本身。他们不会花时间认真研究这些细节。
It makes something great and makes something functional. And you feel it in the end result. But I mean, blood sweat tears years of my life for those projects. And it was worth it. I enjoyed almost, I enjoyed almost every minute of it. So to you, it's not about the flipping. Do you, it's about the art of the and the function of the thing that you're creating? 100%. What's design on plan? I'm learning. You think today. When proposals are put forth by an architect and really just the plan is accepted without and in the case of a renovation, like if you're not walking those rooms, the number of times a beautifully laid out room was on a blueprint. And then I'd go to Washington and I'd walk that floor and I'd realize that there was a column that ran right up through the middle of the space where, you know, the bed was supposed to be or the toilet was supposed to be or the shower.
它让一些东西更好，也让一些东西更实用。而你能在最终结果中感受到这一点。但是，我的意思是，我为这些项目付出了我的血汗和多年的努力。而这一切都是值得的。我几乎享受了其中的每一分钟。所以，对你来说，这不仅仅是翻修，而是关于你正在创造的东西的艺术和功能的结合。这一点我完全同意。设计到底是什么呢？我在学习。当建筑师提出方案时，往往只是接受设计图，而在装修的情况下，如果你没有亲自走进那些房间，你会发现很多次一个在蓝图上布置得很漂亮的房间，当我去实地考察时才发现，有一根柱子正好穿过空间的中间，而那里原本是床、马桶或者淋浴的位置。
So there's a lot of things that are missed when you do something conceptually without sort of rooting it in the actual structure. And that's why I think even, you know, with ground up construction as well, people who aren't constantly on their job sites constantly walking the projects, there's just a lot that's there's a lot that's missed. I mean, there's a wisdom to the the idea that we talked about before live with the materials and walking the construction site, walking the rooms. I mean, that's what you hear from people like Steve Jobs, like Elon. That's why you live in a factory floor. That's why you constantly obsess about the details the actual not of the plans, but the physical reality of the product. I mean, the insanity of Steve Jobs and Johnny I've working together on like making it perfect, making the iPhone, the early designs, prototypes, making that perfect.
当你在概念上做某件事而没有将其根植于实际结构中时，会遗漏很多东西。这就是为什么我认为即使在从头开始的建设中，那些不经常在工地上的人，错过的东西会更多。这就像我们之前谈到的，与材料共处、在施工现场和房间内走动的智慧。我是说，这也是为什么像Steve Jobs和Elon这样的人强调要亲临工厂车间，关注细节，不仅是计划中的细节，而是产品的实际物理现实。这种对于完美的疯狂追求，就像Steve Jobs和Johnny Ive一起合作完美化iPhone早期设计和原型的过程。
Like what it actually feels like in the hand, you have to be there like as close to the metal as possible to truly understand. And you have to love it in order to do that. Right. It shouldn't be about the how much it's going to sell for all that kind of stuff you have to love the art. It's for the most part, he can probably get 90, maybe 95% of the end result, unless something is terribly gone awry by not caring with that level of almost like maniacal precision. But you'll notice that 10% for the rest of your life. So I think that extra effort, that passion, I think that's what separates good from great. If we go back to that young Ivanka, the confidence of youth, and if we could talk about your mom, she had a big influence on you. You told me she was an adventurer.
就像亲手感受到的那种真实感觉一样，你必须亲临其境，尽可能接近实物本身，才能真正理解。你必须热爱它才能做到。真的，不应该只考虑它能卖多少钱，而是要热爱这门艺术。在大多数情况下，他可能能达到最终结果的90%，甚至95%，除非有什么严重的差错，而不需要那种近乎疯狂的精确度。但是，那10%的差异会让你在余生中察觉到。所以我认为额外的努力和激情，正是把优秀和卓越区分开的关键。如果我们回到年轻的伊万卡，那种年轻的自信，还有，谈到你的母亲，她对你有很大的影响。你告诉我她是个冒险家。
Yeah. Olympic skier and a business woman. What did you learn about life from your mother? So much. She passed away two years ago now. And she was a remarkable, remarkable woman. She was a trailblazer in so many different ways as an athlete in growing up in Communist Czechoslovakia as a fashion mogul, as a real estate executive and builder, just this all-around trailblazing business woman. I also learned from her, aside from that element, how to really enjoy life. I look back and some of my happiest memories of her are in the ocean, you know, just lying on her back, looking up at the sun and just so, so in the moment, or dancing. She loved to dance. She really taught me a lot about living life to its fullest.
是的，她既是一位奥运滑雪选手，又是一名商业女性。你从你的母亲那里学到了哪些人生经验？实在是太多了。她是在两年前去世的，是一位非凡的、非凡的女性。在很多方面，她都是一个开创者，作为运动员在共产主义的捷克斯洛伐克成长为时尚大亨、地产高管和建筑商，总之是全面的开拓先锋。除了这些，我还从她那儿学到了如何真正享受生活。我回想起和她在一起的一些最快乐的记忆，就是在海里，她喜欢仰卧在水面上，沐浴着阳光，完全活在当下，或者跳舞，她特别喜欢跳舞。她真的教会了我怎样充分地生活。
And she had so much courage, so much conviction, so much energy, and a complete comfort with who she was. What do you think about that? I mean, Olympic athlete, the tradeoff between ambition and just wanting to do big things and pursuing that and giving your all to that and being able to relax and just throw your arms back and enjoy every moment of life. Like that tradeoff. What do you think about that tradeoff? I think because she was this unbelievable formidable athlete and because of the discipline she had as a child, I think it made her value those moments more as an adult. I think she was a great balance of the two that we all hope to find, and she was able to find both incredibly serious and formidable.
她充满了勇气、信念和能量，对自我十分坦然。你怎么看待这种情况？我是说，作为一名奥运选手，需要在追求宏伟目标和全心奉献之间做出取舍，同时也要懂得放松，享受生活的每一刻。这样的权衡，你怎么看待？我认为，因为她是一个不可思议的优秀运动员，并且从小就很有纪律性，这让她在成年后更加珍视那些瞬间。我觉得她在追求目标和享受生活之间找到了很好的平衡，这也是我们所有人都希望能达到的状态，她能够在高度严肃与强大之间游刃有余。
I remember as a little girl I used to literally traips behind her at the Plaza Hotel, which she oversaw and actually kind of was her old post office. It was this unbelievable historic hotel in New York City. And I'd follow her around at construction meetings and on job sites and there she is dancing. That's funny, that's the picture you pull up. I'm sorry. You just lagre in that picture. That's great. She had such a joy to her and she was so unabashed in her perspective and her opinions. I mean, she made my father look reserved. Whatever she was feeling, whatever she was just very expressive and a lot of fun to be around. So she, as you mentioned, grew up during the Prague Spring in 1968 and that had a big impact on human history.
我记得小姑娘的时候，我常常跟在她后面，在她管理的纽约市历史悠久的广场酒店四处走动。对她来说，那地方就像她的旧邮局。我会跟着她参加建筑会议和工地，那时她就是那样跳着舞。哈哈，你刚好提到这张趣图。对不起，让我发笑。照片里的她真是太可爱了。她充满了快乐，对自己的观点和意见毫不掩饰。我父亲在她面前显得内敛。她总是非常直率表达自己的情感，和她在一起总是很有趣。正如你提到的，她在1968年的布拉格之春期间成长，这对人类历史产生了重大影响。
My family came from the Soviet Union and then the 20th century, the story of the 20th century is a lot of Eastern Europe, the Soviet Union, tried the ideas of communism and it turned out that a lot of those ideas resulted into a lot of suffering. So what do you think? the communist ideology failed? I think fundamentally as people we desire freedom, we want agency. My mom was like a lot of other people who grew up in similar situations where she didn't like to talk about it that often. So one of my real regrets is that I didn't push her harder.
我的家族来自苏联，然后在20世纪，20世纪的故事很大程度上与东欧和苏联有关，他们尝试了共产主义的理念，结果这些理念导致了很多痛苦。那么你怎么看？是不是共产主义意识形态失败了？我认为，从根本上来说，我们人类渴望自由，想要拥有自主权。我的母亲就像很多在类似环境中长大的人一样，她不太愿意谈论这些往事。所以，我真正的遗憾之一就是没有更加努力地去追问她。
But I think back to the conversations we did have and I try to imagine what it's like. She was at Charles University in Prague, which was really like a focal point of the reforms that were ushered in during the Prague Spring and the liberalization agenda that was happening. The dance halls were opening, the student activists and she was attending university there right at that same time.
我回想起我们曾经的对话，尝试去想象她当时的情景。她在布拉格的查尔斯大学就读，那正是布拉格之春改革和自由化议程的中心。那时舞厅开始开放，学生们纷纷参与各种激进运动，而她也正是在那个时期在这所大学学习。
So the contrast to this feeling of freedom and progress and liberalization in the spring and then it's so quickly being crushed in the fall of that same year when Warsaw Pact countries and the Soviet Union rolled in to put down and ultimately roll back all those reforms. So for her to have lived through that, she didn't come to North America until she was 23 or 24.
所以，这种对比是，在春天人们感受到自由、进步和自由化，而在同年的秋天，这种感觉却迅速被镇压。当时，华约国家和苏联入侵，镇压并最终撤销了所有这些改革。她经历了这一切，直到23或24岁才来到北美。
So that was her life. As a young girl, she was on the junior national ski team for Czechoslovakia. My grandfather used to train her. They used to put the skis on her back and walk up the mountain in Czechoslovakia because there were no ski lifts. She actually made me do that when I was a child just to let me know what her experience had been. If I complained that it was cold out, she's like, well, you didn't have to walk up the mountain.
所以这就是她的生活。小时候，她是捷克斯洛伐克青少年国家滑雪队的一员。我的祖父曾经是她的教练。由于没有缆车，他们常常让她背着滑雪板爬山。在我小时候，她也让我这样做，好让我了解她当时的经历。如果我抱怨天气冷，她就会说，你不用爬山呢。
You'd be you'd be plenty warm if you had carried the skis up on your back up the last run. I feel like they made people tougher back then. Like my grandma, you mentioned it's funny. They go through some of the darkest things that a human being can go through and they don't talk about it and they have a general positive outlook on life.
如果上一次滑雪你背着滑雪板上去，你就会感到很暖和。我觉得过去的人更坚强。就像我奶奶那样，你提到过这是很有趣的。他们经历了人类可能经历过的最艰难的事情，却从不谈论这些，并且对生活保持一种普遍的积极态度。
Like that's deeply rooted in the knowledge of what life could be. Like how bad it could get my grandma survived Holodomor in Ukraine, which was the mass starvation brought on by the collectivist policies of the Stalin regime. And then she survived the Nazi occupation of Ukraine. Never talked about it. Probably went through extremely dark, extremely difficult times and then just always had a positive outlook on life.
这深深植根于对生活可能状况的认知，知道生活可能会有多糟糕。我的祖母曾经在乌克兰经历了“霍洛多莫尔”，这是由于斯大林政权的集体化政策导致的大规模饥荒。随后，她又经历了纳粹对乌克兰的占领。她从未谈论过这些事情，可能经历了极其黑暗和艰难的时刻，但她始终对生活保持积极的态度。
And also made me do very difficult physical activity. Like you see, imagine just the humble you like his ideas are soft kind of energy, which I'm deeply, deeply grateful for. On all fronts, including just having hardship and including just physical hardship flowing at me, I think that's really important.
他还让我进行非常艰苦的体力活动。就像你看到的，可以想象你谦逊的时候，他的想法是柔和的一种能量，我对此深深感激。在各个方面，包括经历困难，特别是身体上的困难，我认为这非常重要。
You wonder how much of who they were was a reaction to their experience. Would she have naturally had that sort of forward looking grateful, optimistic orientation or was it a reaction to our childhood? I think about that. I look at this picture of my mom and she was unabashedly herself. She loved flamboyance and glamour.
你不禁想知道他们的性格有多少是对他们经历的反应。她本来就是那种充满感激和乐观向前看的性格，还是这些是因为我们童年时的影响？我常常思考这个问题。我看着我妈妈的照片，她总是毫不掩饰地做自己。她热爱浮夸和魅力。
And in some ways, I think it probably was a direct reaction to this very austere controlled childhood. This was one expression of it. I think her, how she dressed and how she presented. I think her entrepreneurial spirit and love of capitalism and all things American was another manifestation of it and one that I grew up with.
在某种程度上，我认为这可能是对她那种非常严格受控的童年的直接反应。这就是其中一种表达方式。我认为她的穿着和举止展示了这一点。我认为她的企业家精神以及对资本主义和一切美国事物的热爱是另一个表现，而且我在成长过程中也体验过这种表现。
Remember the story she used to tell me about when she was 14 and she was going to neighboring countries. As an athlete, you were given additional freedoms that you wouldn't otherwise be afforded in these societies under communist rule. So she was able to travel where most of her friends never would be able to leave Czechoslovakia and she would come back from all of these trips and the first place where she'd do ski races in Austria and elsewhere.
记得她以前告诉我的故事吗？在她14岁的时候，她曾去过邻国。作为一名运动员，她享有了一些在共产主义统治下的社会中无法获得的额外自由。因此，她能够去旅行，而她的大多数朋友从未有机会离开过捷克斯洛伐克。她从所有这些旅行中回来后，第一个去的地方就是在奥地利和其他地方参加滑雪比赛。
And the first thing she had to do was check in at the local police and she'd sit down and she had enough wisdom at 14 to know that she couldn't appear to be lying by not being impressed by what she saw and the fact that you could get an orange in the winter but she couldn't be too excited by it that she'd become a flight risk. So given enough detail that you're believable but not so many that you're not trusted.
她首先要做的事情就是到当地警方报到，然后坐下来。她虽然只有14岁，但已经有足够的智慧明白，面对所看到的一切，她不能表现得太过冷漠，那样看起来像是在撒谎，尤其是冬天能看到一个橙子的事实；但她也不能表现得太兴奋，否则会让人觉得她可能会逃走。所以，她需要提供足够多的细节让人相信她，但又不能多到让人对她产生怀疑。
And imagine that as a 14-year-old, that experience and having to navigate the world that way. And she told me that eventually all those local police officers, they came to love her because one of the things she do is smuggle that stuff back from these countries and give it to them to give their wives perfume and stockings.
想象一下，作为一个14岁的孩子，有这样的经历，并且需要以这样的方式来应对世界。她告诉我，最后所有那些当地的警官都很喜欢她，因为她会做的一件事情就是从那些国家偷偷带回一些东西，送给他们，让他们可以把香水和长袜送给他们的妻子。
So she figured out the system pretty quickly. But it's a very different experience from what I was navigating and the pressures and challenges me as a 14-year-old was dealing with. So I have so much respect and admiration for her.
所以她很快就搞懂了这个体制。但这与我当时面对的环境和作为一个14岁孩子所承受的压力和挑战非常不同。因此，我对她充满了尊重和钦佩。
Yeah, hardship clarifies what's important in life. You and I have talked about man's search for meaning. That book, having kind of an ultimate hardship, clarifies that finding joy in life is not about the environment; it's about your outlook on that environment. And there's beauty to be found in any situation.
是的，艰难困苦让我们更清楚地认识到生活中什么是真正重要的。你我曾经讨论过人对意义的追寻。那本书，通过极端的困境，告诉我们在生活中寻找快乐并不取决于外部环境，而在于你对环境的看法。无论处于何种境地，总能发现其中的美好。
And also in that particular situation, when everything is taken from you, the thing you start to think about is the people you love. So in the case of "Man's Search for Meaning," Victor Frankl is thinking about his wife and how much he loves her. And that love was the flame, the warmth that kept him excited.
在那种特定情况下，当你失去一切时，你开始思考的是你所爱的人。例如在《活出生命的意义》这本书中，维克多·弗兰克尔想到了他的妻子，和他对她深切的爱。正是这份爱像火焰一样，为他带来了温暖和激励，让他充满了动力。
The fun thing to think about when everything else is gone is that we sometimes forget that with the busyness of life. All this fun stuff we're talking about, like building and being a creative force in the world, at the end of the day, what matters is just like the other humans in your life, the people you love. It's the simple stuff. You know, Victor Frankl is somebody, I mean, his book... and just his philosophy in general is is so inspiring to me. But I think so many people, they say they want happiness, but they want conditional happiness. You know, when this and this, a thing happens or under these circumstances, then I'll be happy. And I think what he showed is that we can sort of cultivate these virtues within ourselves, regardless of the situation we find ourselves in.
当一切都消失时，我们有时会忘记生活的繁忙中可以思考一些有趣的事情。我们谈论的所有这些有趣的东西，比如在世界上创造和建构，最终重要的事情其实是生活中的其他人，你所爱的人。其实就是这些简单的事。你知道吗，维克多·弗兰克尔，他和他的书还有他整体的哲学对我来说非常有启发。但是我认为很多人都说他们想要幸福，但他们想要的却是有条件的幸福。你知道，只有当某些事情发生或者在某些情况下，他们才会感到幸福。我认为他展示的是我们可以在任何情况下培养这些内在的美德。
And in some ways, I think the the meaning of life is the search for meaning in life. It's the relationships we have. And we form its experience. We have, it's how we deal with the suffering that life inevitably presents to us. And Victor Franco does an amazing job highlighting that under the most horrific circumstances. And I think it's just super inspiring to me. He also shows that you can get so much from just like small joys, like getting a little more soup today than you did yesterday. I mean, it's like, it's the little stuff. If you're a lot of yourself to love the little stuff of life, it's all around you. It's all there.
在某种程度上，我认为生命的意义就是寻找生活中的意义。这包含我们所建立的关系、我们所经历的事情，以及我们如何应对生活中不可避免的苦难。维克多·弗兰克尔在这一方面做得非常出色，他在最严酷的环境中突出了这一点。这对我来说非常鼓舞人心。他还展示了你可以从一些小的快乐中获得很多，比如今天比昨天多喝了一点汤。这些都是生活中的小事。如果你允许自己去爱生活中的小事，你就会发现它们无处不在。
So you don't need to like have these ambitious goals and the comparison being a thief or joy, that kind of stuff. Just like it's all around us, the ability to eat like what I when I was in the jungle. And I got severely dehydrated because there's no water. You run out of water real quick. And I mean, the joy felt when I got to drink. Like I didn't care about anything else. Speaking of things that matter in life, I was I was start to fantasize about water. And that was bringing me joy. It can tap into this blanket. I was just tapping in just to stay positive. Just point your bathroom turn on the sink and watch the water.
所以你不需要设立那些雄心勃勃的目标，也不用去比较，因为比较是快乐的小偷，诸如此类的事情。其实快乐就在我们周围，比如我在丛林里的时候，严重脱水，因为没有水，很快就会用完。喝到水的时候是多么快乐啊，那时我完全不在乎其他事情。说到生活中重要的事情，我开始幻想喝水，这让我感到快乐。这种快乐其实随时都可以触及。我只是努力保持积极的心态。只要去浴室，打开水龙头，看着水流就好。
Oh, for sure. For sure. I mean, people really, it's good to have stuff taken away for time. That's why struggle is good to make you appreciate, to have a deep gratitude for when you have it. And water and food is a big one, but water is the biggest one. I wouldn't recommend it necessarily to get severely dehydrated to appreciate water. But maybe every time you take a sip of water, you could have that kind of gratitude. There's a prayer and Judaism you're supposed to say every morning, which is basically thinking God for your body working. It's something, you know, so basic, but it's when it doesn't that that we're grateful.
哦，当然了。我是说，人们真的需要在一定时间内失去一些东西。这就是为什么困难是好的，它能让你在拥有时更加感激。食物和水是其中的重要部分，尤其是水。我并不建议通过让自己严重脱水来学会珍惜水，但也许每次喝水时，你可以心怀感恩。犹太教有个祈祷词，是每天早晨要感谢上帝赐予健康的身体。这听起来很基本，但往往只有当身体不工作时，我们才会感激它的正常运作。
So just reminding ourselves every day, the basic things of a functional body of of our health of access to to water, which so many millions of people around the world do not have reliably is very clarifying and super important. Yeah, health is a gift. Water is a gift. Yeah. Is there a memory with your mom that had a defining effect on your life? I have these vignettes in my mind, you know, seeing her in action and different capacities. I think it's a lot of times in the context of things that I would later go on to do myself. So you know, I would go every day, almost every day after school. And I'd go to the Plaza Hotel and I'd follow her around as she'd walk the hallways and just observe her.
所以，每天提醒自己，一个健康的身体最基本的需求，比如水——这是全球数百万的人无法稳定获得的资源——这一点对于我们来说很清晰且重要。健康是礼物，水也是礼物。那么，你和你妈妈之间有没有什么回忆对你的人生产生了决定性影响？在我脑海中有这样一些片段：看到她在不同场合的表现。我想，很多时候这些与我后来自己要做的事情有关。比如说，我几乎每天放学后都会去广场酒店，跟随着她在走廊里走来走去，观察她的一举一动。
And she was so impossibly glamorous. She was doing everything in, you know, four and a half inch heels with this and so it was almost it was almost like an it's almost like an inaccessible visual. But I think for me, when I saw her experience, the most joy tended to be by the sea. Almost always not not a pool. And I think I get this from her. I I'm a pool. They're fun. I love the ocean. I love saltwater. I love the way it makes me feel. And I think I got that from her. So we would we would just swim together all all the time. And and you know, it's a lot of what I love about Miami actually being being so close to the ocean.
她真是极致迷人。她总是穿着四寸半高的高跟鞋，做事情时显得几乎令人难以企及，宛如一个遥不可及的视觉形象。但对我来说，当我看到她在海边时，她才是最快乐的。几乎总是在海边，而不是游泳池旁。我想我从她那里得到了这种喜好。我喜欢游泳池，但我更爱大海，喜欢咸咸的海水，喜欢那种感觉。我想这是我从她那里继承来的。所以我们经常一起去游泳。其实，这也是我喜欢迈阿密的一个原因——因为离大海很近。
I find it to be super cathartic. But a lot of my memories of my mom seeing her really like just in her bliss is is floating around and in a body of saltwater. Is there also some aspect to her being an example of somebody that could be sort of beautiful and feminine, but at the same time, powerful, a successful business woman that showed that it's possible to do that? Yeah, I think she really was a trailblazer. It's not uncommon in real estate for there to be multiple generations of people. And so on on job sites, I it was not unusual for me to run into somebody whose grandfather had worked with my grandfather and Brooklyn or Queens or whose father had worked with my mother.
我觉得这对我来说是一个非常释放的过程。我的很多关于妈妈的记忆都是看到她在盐水中漂浮，特别地快乐。她是否也是一种榜样，展示了一个人既可以是美丽和女性化的，同时又是强大的，一个成功的商业女性，证明这种结合是可能的？是的，我认为她确实是一个开拓者。在房地产行业，多代人共同参与并不罕见。因此，在工地上，我经常会遇到一些人的祖父曾经和我的祖父在布鲁克林或皇后区一起工作，或者他们的父亲曾与我母亲共事过。
And and they'd always tell me these stories about her, you know, rolling in and they'd hear the heels first. And a lot of times the story would be like, oh gosh, like, you know, really it's two days after Christmas. Like we thought we'd get a reprieve. But she was she was very exacting. You know, so I have this visual in my mind of her, you know, walking on rebar, you know, on the balls of her feet in these four-inch heels. I'm assuming she actually carried flats with her, but but I don't know. That's not the visual I have. But she was, I loved the fact that she so embodied femininity and and glamour and and was so comfortable being tough and ambitious and determined and and this unbelievable businesswoman and entrepreneur at at a time when she was very much alone, even, you know, for for me and in the development world and so many of the different businesses that I've been in, there really aren't women outside of of sales and of marketing.
他们总是给我讲关于她的故事，比如说，她总是穿着高跟鞋来回走动，先听到的总是她的脚步声。很多时候他们会说，天哪，圣诞节刚过两天，我们以为能放松一下。但她非常严格。我脑海中总是浮现出她踩着钢筋走路的画面，脚尖垫着四英寸的高跟鞋。我猜她可能会带着平底鞋，只是我没有这样的印象。让我喜欢的是，她完美结合了女性的优雅与魅力，同时又在职场上表现得如此坚韧、雄心勃勃和果断。在那个时代，她是一个令人瞩目的商界女性和企业家，几乎是独自开辟道路。即使在我从事开发工作和其他许多行业的背景下，除了销售和市场营销之外，基本没有女性的身影。
You don't see as many women in the development space in the construction space, even in the architecture and and design space, maybe outside of interior design. So and she was, you know, decades ahead of me. So it was I love hearing these stories. I love I love hearing somebody who's my peer tell me about their grandfather and their father and their experience with with one of my parents. It's amazing. And she did it all in four-inch heels. And she did it. She used to say, there's nothing that I can't do better in heels. That would be that would be her exact thing. And when I complained about wearing something, you know, was like the early 90s, everything was also like uncomfortable. These fabrics and materials and and I was I was like go back and forth between being super girly and a total tomboy.
在开发、建筑以及设计领域，尤其是室内设计外，你很少看到有很多女性。她比我早几代进入这些领域，因此我很喜欢听这些故事。我喜欢听同龄人讲述他们祖父、父亲的经历以及与我父母之间的往事，这太精彩了。而且，更神奇的是，她都是穿着四英寸高跟鞋完成这些事情的。她常说：“没有什么是我穿高跟鞋做不好”的。这就是她的原话。每当我抱怨穿什么不舒服的时候，比如在90年代初期，那时候所有的面料和材料都让人不舒服，我也在超级女性化和完全假小子之间反复徘徊，她就会这样安慰我。
But, but she, you know, dressed me up in these things and I'd be complaining about it. And she'd say, you've all got pain for beauty, which I happened to totally disagree with because I think there's nothing worse than being uncomfortable. So I haven't accepted or internalized all of this, this wisdom, so to speak, but but it was just funny. You know, she had, she had a very specific point of view. And full of good lines, pain for beauty. It's it's funny because I mean, just even in fashion, if something's uncomfortable, to me, there's nothing that looks worse than when you see somebody like tottering around, like their heels hurt them, so they're kind of walking oddly. And, you know, it doesn't, they're not embodying their confidence in that regard. So I'm like kind of the opposite. I start with, well, I want to be comfortable.
但是，她，你知道的，总是让我穿上那些衣服，我常常对此抱怨。她总是说，为了美丽你们得忍受痛苦，但我完全不同意这种观点，因为我认为没有什么比不舒服更糟糕了。所以，我一直没有接受或内化这些所谓的智慧。不过，有时候这真的很有趣。你知道，她有自己非常明确的观点，还常说一些妙语，比如"美需要忍痛"。这让我觉得很搞笑，因为即使在时尚界，如果穿得不舒服，看到有人穿着不合脚的高跟鞋走路跌跌撞撞，这看起来一点也不好看。他们没有显示出自信。所以我正好相反，我的出发点是，我要先感到舒适。
And that helps me be confident and and in command. A foundation for fashion for you is comfort and on top of that, you build things that are beautiful. Like, doubty, you know, there's that level of comfort, but functional comfort. But I think you have to, for me, I want to feel confident and you don't feel confident when you're like pulling at a garment or, you know, hobbling on heels that don't fit you properly. And she was never doing those things either. So I don't know how she was wearing stuff like that. That's like a 40 pound V to dress. And I know this because I have it. And I wore it recently. And I mean, I got to work out walking to the elevator. Like, this is a heavy dress. And you know, it was worth it. It was great.
这让我感到自信和掌控。对你来说，时尚的基础是舒适，然后在此基础上，打造美丽的东西。就像得体的衣服，舒适感是有的，而且是实用的舒适。但我觉得，对我来说，我想要感到自信，当你在扯动一件衣服或穿着不合脚的高跟鞋时，你是不会感到自信的。而她也从不会这样做。所以我不知道她是怎么穿那些衣服的。就像那件价值40英镑的V型连衣裙。我知道这一点，因为我有一件，最近还穿过。我就是走到电梯那里都能算是锻炼了，这是一件很重的裙子。不过，这一切都是值得的，效果很好。
Yeah. She's making it look easy. But she, she makes it look very, very easy. So do you miss her? I'm so much. It's unbelievable how dislocating the loss of a, of a parent is. And her mother lives with me. Still, my grandmother, who helped raise us. So that's very special. And I can ask her some of the questions that I would have, sorry, I wanted to ask my own mom that it's hard. It was beautiful to see a garden chance to spend time with your family to see so many generations together at the table. There's so much history there. She's 97. And until she was around 94, she lived completely on her own. No help, no anything, no support. And, and now she requires really sort of 24 hour care.
好的。她让一切看起来很容易。她真的让它看起来非常、非常简单。那么，你想她吗？我非常想。失去父母带来的那种不适应感真是不可思议。她的母亲现在和我住在一起，我的祖母，她曾经帮忙养育我们。这很特别。我可以问她一些我想问妈妈但没机会的问题，这很难。
看着一个家庭花园，和家人一起度过时间，看到很多代人团聚在餐桌旁，真是美好。在那里有很多历史。她已经97岁了，直到大约94岁的时候，她都可以完全自理，没有任何帮助或支持。而现在她需要全天候的照看。
And I feel super grateful that I'm able to get for that because that's what she did for me. It's amazing for me to have my children be able to grow up and know her stories, know her recipes, check dumplings and, and gulash. And Kitsalita and all the other things she used to make me and my childhood. But, but she really, she was a major, she was a major force in my life. My grandmother, she, you know, my mom was working. So, you know, my grandmother was the person who was always home every day when I came back from school. And I remember I used to shower and it would almost be like, comical. I feel like in my memory, and there was no washing machine I've seen on the planet that can actually do this.
我感到非常感激，因为我能够做到这一点，因为这正是她为我做的。对我来说，让我的孩子们能够在成长过程中了解她的故事、她的食谱，学会做饺子、古拉什和Kitsalita，以及她在我童年时为我做的所有事情，真是太好了。但她真的是我生命中的一个重要力量。我的祖母，在我妈妈工作的时候，总是她每天在我放学回家时都在家。我记得我常常洗澡，感觉这场景几乎有些滑稽。感觉在我的记忆中，没有洗衣机可以真正做到这一点。
But in my memory, I'd go to shower, you know, and I'd drop something on the bed. And I'd come back into the room after my shower and it was like folded, pressed, it was all my grandma's. Just like running after me, taking care of me. And so it's nice to be able to do that for her. Yeah. I got from her reading. My grandmother, she would, she devoured books, like devoured books. She loved the more sensational ones. So, so like some of these like romance novels, I would pick them up, the covers, but she could tell you she could look at like any royal lineage across Europe and tell you all the mistresses. All the drama. All the drama. She loved it. But her face was always buried in a book. You know, my grandfather, Deito, he was the athlete. He was, he swam professionally for, or, you know, on the national team for check a Slovakian. He helped train my mom as I was saying before in skiing.
在我的记忆中，我常常去洗澡，比如说，我会把东西丢在床上。等我洗完澡回来，发现东西已经被叠好、压平，都是我奶奶在照顾我。能够为她做这些让我感到很开心。是的，我从她那里学到了阅读。我的奶奶，非常喜欢阅读，真是如饥似渴地读书。她尤其喜爱那些更感官刺激的书，比如一些言情小说。我会随手拿起这些带有华丽封面的书，她却能告诉你欧洲各国的皇室世系，还能讲出所有情妇和那些复杂的故事。她特别喜欢这些，而她的脸总是埋在书中。你知道，我的祖父，Deito，是个运动员。他曾经专业游泳，也许是为捷克斯洛伐克国家队游过。他如我之前所说，还帮助训练了我妈妈的滑雪。
So, he was a great athlete and she was at home and she would read and cook. And so that's something I, I remember a lot from my childhood and she would always say like I got, I got reading from her. I mean, speaking of drama, I had my English teacher in high school. They recommended a book for me by D. H. Lawrence. It's supposed to be a classic. She was like, this is a classic you should read. It's called Lady Shadow A's Lover. And so I've read a lot of classics. But that one is straight up like a romance novel about a wife who likes to cheat in with a gardener. And I remember reading this like what I can retrospect and understand why it's a classic because it was so scandalous to talk about sex in a book a hundred years ago, whatever.
所以，他是一个伟大的运动员，而她则在家里读书和做饭。这是我童年时的一个深刻记忆。她总是说，我的阅读习惯是从她那里继承的。至于戏剧，有一次我在高中时，我的英语老师推荐了一本D. H. 劳伦斯的书给我。据说这是一本经典作品。她对我说，这是一部你应该阅读的经典作品，名叫《查泰莱夫人的情人》。我读了很多经典作品，但这本书完全就像一本浪漫小说，讲的是一个喜欢和园丁出轨的妻子的故事。我还记得当时读这本书时的感觉，现在回想起来，我明白为什么它被认为是经典，因为在一百年前书中谈论性是一件非常有争议的事情。
In retrospect, you know why she recommended it. I have no, I think, maybe she's sending a signal, hey, you need to get out more or something. I don't know. Maybe she's seeking to inspire you. Exactly. Anyway, I love that kind of stuff too, but I love all the classics. And they get, they get, there's a lot of drama. Human nature, drama is part of it. So what about your dad growing up? What did you learn about life from your father? I think my father's sense of humor is sometimes underappreciated. So he had an amazing and has an amazing sense of humor. He loved music. I think my mom loved music as well, but you know, my father always used to say that in another life he would have been a Broadway musical producer, which is hilarious to think about.
回想起来，你知道她为什么推荐它。我不知道，我想，也许她是在发出一个信号，比如说，你该多出去走走了。我不知道。也许她是想激励你。没错。不管怎样，我也喜欢那种东西，但我也喜欢所有经典作品。那些作品总是充满了戏剧性。人性中，戏剧性是其中的一部分。那么关于你父亲小时候的事情呢？你从父亲那里学到了什么人生道理？我觉得我父亲的幽默感有时没有被充分欣赏。他有一份奇妙的幽默感，而且他的幽默感至今仍然很出色。他热爱音乐。我想我妈妈也喜欢音乐，但你知道，我父亲总是说，如果有来生他会成为百老汇音乐剧的制作人，想起来真是搞笑。
But he loves, he loves music. That is fun. He's like about right. He does. Now he DJs at Mar-a-Lago. So people get a sense of, you know, he loves Andrew Lloyd Webber and all of it. Poverati, Elton John. I mean, these were the same songs on repeat my whole childhood. So I know the playlist. Probably Sinatra and all that. Love Sinatra, love Elvis. You know, a lot of a lot of the greats. So I think I got a little bit of my love from music from him, but my mom shared that as well. I think one of the things, you know, and looking back that I think I inherited from my father as well as this sort of interest or understanding of the importance of asking questions and specifically questions of the right people.
但他确实非常热爱音乐。这很有趣。他就像是一个差不多合适的人。他现在在Mar-a-Lago做DJ。人们可以感受到，他非常喜欢安德鲁·劳埃德·韦伯等音乐作品。帕瓦罗蒂、埃尔顿·约翰。我小时候这些歌一直循环播放，所以我知道这些歌单中可能还有辛纳屈和其他类似的歌。他非常喜欢辛纳屈，也非常喜欢猫王。很多伟大的音乐家他都喜欢。我想我对音乐的热爱有一部分是从他那里继承来的，但我妈妈也有同样的爱好。我认为，从某种角度来看，我从父亲那里继承了对提问、尤其是向合适的人提问的重要性这种兴趣和理解。
And I saw this a lot on job sites. So I remember with the old post office building, there was this massive glass topped atrium. So heating and cooling, the structure was like a Herkulean lift. We had the mechanical engineers provide their thoughts on how we could do it efficiently and so that the temperature never varied. And it was enormously expensive as an undertaking. And I remember one of his first times on the site because, you know, he had really empowered me with this project. And he trusted me to execute and to also, you know, rope him in when I needed it. But one of the first time he visits, we're walking the hallway and we're talking about how expensive this cooling system would be.
我在很多招聘网站上看到过这种情况。我记得在旧邮局大楼里，有一个巨大的玻璃顶中庭。因此，为这样的结构供暖和制冷是一项艰巨的任务。我们请了机械工程师来提供他们的意见，看看如何能高效地完成，并确保温度始终恒定。这项工程花费极大。我记得他第一次来工地时的情景，因为他真的赋予了我在这个项目中的权力，并信任我来执行，同时在我需要时向他请教。但是，在他第一次来视察时，我们走在走廊上，一边讨论这个制冷系统会有多么昂贵。
And heating system would be. And he starts stopping and he's asking duct workers as we walk what they think of the system that the mechanical engineers designed. First few fine, you know, not great answers. The third guy, because sir, if you want me to be honest with you, it's obscenely over designed. And the circumstance of a 1,000 year storm, you will have the exact perfect temperature. If there's a massive blizzard or if it's unbearably hot, but 99.9% of the time you'll never need it. And so I think it's just an enormous waste of money. And so he kept asking that guy questions and we ended up overhauling the design pretty well into the process of the whole system, saving a lot of money, creating a great system that's super functional.
这是关于一个供暖系统的故事。我们边走边询问安装风管的工人他们对机械工程师设计的系统的看法。前面几个人的回答都很一般。到了第三个人，他说，如果您想听实话，这个系统设计得过于复杂。在千年一遇的风暴情况下，你会拥有完美的温度，无论是暴风雪还是炎热难耐的天气都应对自如，但在99.9%的时间里实际上根本不需要这样的设计。因此，我认为这是一种极大的浪费。于是他继续向那个工人提问，最后我们在整个系统的设计中途进行了大改，节省了很多钱，并且创造出了一个非常实用的优秀系统。
And so I learned a lot and that's just one example of countless. That one really takes out of my head because I'm like, oh my gosh, we're redesigning the whole system. You know, we were actively under construction. So is, um, but I would see him do that on a lot of different issues. He would ask people on the work level what their thoughts were ideas, concepts, designs. And there was almost like a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, first principles type of way he, he questioned people, trying to get down to sort of trying to reduce complex things to something really fundamental and, and simple. So I, I try to do that myself to the, to the best I can. And I think it's something I very much learned from him.
因此，我学到了很多，这只是无数例子中的一个。让我印象深刻的是，因为我意识到，我们正在重新设计整个系统，我们实际上还在施工中。但是，我看到他在很多不同的问题上都这样做。他会询问基层员工的想法、创意和设计思路。他提问的方式有点像“第一性原理”，试图将复杂的事物简化为最基本和简单的形式。我也尽力去这样做，我认为这是我从他身上学到的重要一点。
Yeah, I've seen great engineers, great leaders do just that. You see, you want to do that a lot, which is basically ask questions to push simplification. Yeah. Can we do the simpler? And like why, the basic question is like, why are we doing it this way can this be done simpler? Yeah. And not taking as an answer that this is how we've always done it. Sort of not, not allowing yourself to think it doesn't matter that's how it was done it. What is the right way to do it? And what is, and usually the simpler it is, the more correct the way.
是的，我见过很多优秀的工程师和领导者也是这么做的。你会发现，他们常常通过提问来推动简化。就是说，我们能不能做得更简单？最基本的问题是：我们为什么要这样做？这个能不能更简单？而不只是接受“我们一直都是这样做的”这种答案。不要让自己陷入这样的思维：因为我们以前就是这么做的，所以就无所谓。正确的方法是什么？通常来说，越简单的方法往往越正确。
Yeah. Has to do with costs has to do with simplicity of, of production, manufacture, but usually simple is best. And it's oftentimes not the architecture and the engineers, it's, you know, in Elon's case, probably the line worker who sees things more clearly. So I think making sure it's not just that you're asking good questions, you're asking the right people, those same good questions. That's why I like a lot of the Elon companies are really flat in terms of organizational design where the, the, anybody on the factory floor can talk directly to you on. There's no, there's not, there's not this managerial class, this hierarchy where it's travel up and down the hierarchy, which large companies all construct this hierarchy of managers where no one manager, if you ask them the question of like, what have you done this week?
是的，这涉及到成本，也涉及到生产和制造的简便性，但通常简单才是最好的。而且这往往不是关于建筑师和工程师，而是像伊隆那样的情况下，可能是生产线上工人更能看清问题。所以我认为确保不仅是问好问题，而是问对人那些好的问题。这就是为什么我喜欢很多伊隆的公司在组织设计上都非常扁平化，工厂里的任何人都可以直接和他对话。没有那种管理层次的等级制度，没有那种在大公司中常见的经理层次结构，人人都可以自由交流，因此不会出现问某个经理“一周内你做了什么”时，他们答不上来的情况。
The answer is like, it's really hard to come up with. Usually it's going to be a bunch of paperwork. Yeah. So like nobody knows what they actually do. So when it's flat, you can actually get as quickly as possible. When problems arise, you can solve those problems as quickly as possible. And also you have a direct, rapid, iterative process where you're making things simpler, making them more efficient, and constantly improving. So yeah, it's interesting. Well, when large, you see this in government, a lot of people get together, a hierarchy is developed and that somehow, sometimes it's good, but very often just slows things down.
答案不好找，一般来说，这会牵涉很多文件工作。通常人们并不确切知道这些工作具体包含哪些内容。不过，当事情平稳时，你可以尽可能快地进行处理。当问题出现时，你也能迅速解决。并且你可以采用直接、快速、迭代的方法，使事情变得更简单、更高效，并持续改进。所以说，这很有趣。在大型组织，特别是政府中，很多人聚在一起，会产生等级结构，这有时是好事，但往往会拖慢进程。
And you see great companies, great, great companies, Apple, Google, meta, they have to fight against that bureaucracy that builds, the slowness that large organizations have. And to still be a big organization, act like a startup is the big challenge. It's super difficult to deconstruct that as well once it's in place. Right? It's circumventing layers and asking questions, probing questions of people on the ground level is a huge challenge to the authority of the hierarchy. And there's a tremendous amount of resistance to it. So it's how do you grow something in the case of a company in terms of a culture that can scale, but doesn't lose its connection to sort of real and meaningful feedback.
你会看到那些优秀的公司，比如苹果、谷歌、Meta，它们都不得不应对官僚主义的挑战，也就是大型组织通常具有的缓慢性。对这些公司而言，大的挑战是如何在依然作为一个大企业的同时，能够像一个初创公司那样运作。这一点一旦建立起来，就很难打破，对吗？绕过层层管理、询问基层员工问题都是对传统等级权威的巨大挑战，这往往会遇到巨大的阻力。因此，问题在于，如何能够在公司文化方面做到扩展规模，但又不失去与真实而有意义的反馈之间的联系。
It's not easy. I've had a lot of conversations with Jim Keller, who is this legendary engineer and leader. And he has talked about, like you often have to kind of be a little bit of an asshole in the room, not in a mean way, but it's like it's uncomfortable. Like a lot of these questions that are uncomfortable, they break the kind of general politeness and civility that people have in communication. When you get a meeting, nobody wants to be like, can we do it way different? Everyone wants just just like, this lunch is coming up. You know, I have this trip planned on the weekend with the family. Everyone just wants comfort.
这并不容易。我与传奇工程师兼领导者吉姆·凯勒进行了很多对话。他曾提到，有时候你得在会议上表现得有点“难对付”，不是说要刻意刻薄或无礼，而是说这种做法往往令人不太自在。很多时候，这些不太舒服的问题打破了人们在交流中的一般礼貌和文明。在会议中，没有人愿意提出完全不同的想法，因为大家往往只想着即将到来的午餐，或者计划好的周末家庭旅行。每个人都追求舒适和安逸。
The humans get together, they kind of gravitate towards comfort. Nobody wants that one person that comes in and says, hey, can we like do this way better and way different? And everything we've gotten comfortable with throw it out. Not only do they not want that, but the one person who comes in and does that puts a massive target on their back. And it's ultimately seen as a threat. I mean, nobody really gets fired for maintaining the status quo. Even if things go poorly, it's the way it was always done.
人们聚在一起时，总会倾向于选择舒适的方式。没有人愿意有一个人跳出来说：“嘿，我们能不能以更好的方式做些不同的尝试，并把那些我们已经习惯的东西全都抛弃呢？”不仅没有人喜欢这样，那个提出这种建议的人还可能因此受到排挤，甚至被视为一种威胁。毕竟，坚持旧有的方式很少会导致被解雇。即使情况变糟，这也是一直以来的做法。
Yeah, humans are fascinating. But in order to actually do great big projects, to reach for the stars, you have to have those people. You have to constantly disrupt and have those uncomfortable conversations. And really have that first principles type of orientation, especially in those large bureaucratic contexts. So amongst many other things, you created a fashion brand. What was that about? What was the origin of that?
是的，人类真的很迷人。但要实现那些伟大的重大项目，去追求星辰大海，就必须有那些关键的人才。你需要不断进行变革和进行那些令人不适的对话，真正坚持从基本原则出发，特别是在那些大型官僚体系中。在众多项目中，你创立了一个时尚品牌。那是什么？它的起源是什么？
I always loved fashion as a form of self-expression, as a means to communicate either a truth or an illusion, depending on what kind of mood you're in, but this sort of second body, if you will. So I loved fashion. And look, I mean, my mother was a big part of the reason I did, but I never thought I would go into fashion. In fact, I was graduating from warden. It was the day of my graduation. And Winter calls me up and offered me a job at Vogue, which is a dream in so many ways. But I was so focused. I wanted to go into real estate, and I wanted to build buildings. And I told her that. So I really thought that that was going to be the path I was taking.
我一直喜欢把时尚当作一种自我表达的方式，根据你的心情，它可以传达真相或幻象，是一种“第二肌肤”。我非常热爱时尚。说实话，我的母亲是我热爱时尚的重要原因之一。然而，我从没想过自己会进入时尚行业。事实上，我当时正要从沃顿商学院毕业，毕业那天，温特打电话给我，邀请我去《Vogue》工作。去《Vogue》工作在很多方面都是一个梦想，但我当时目标很明确，我想进入房地产行业，想要建造楼房，我也告诉了她。所以我真的以为那会是我选择的道路。
And then very organically fashion, it was part of my life, but it came into my life in a more professional capacity by talking with my first of many different partners that I had in the fashion space about. He actually had shown me a building to buy his family had some real estate holdings. And I passed on on the real estate deal, but we forged a friendship. And we started talking about how in the space that he was in fine jewelry, there was this lack of product and brands that were positioned for self purchasing females.
然后，出于一种非常自然的机缘，时尚逐渐成为我生活的一部分。不过，时尚以一种更专业的方式融入我的生活。最开始是在时尚领域中与我许多合伙人中的第一位交流。他实际上给我看了一栋想让我买的楼，他家里有一些房地产资产。不过我放弃了这笔房地产交易，但我们建立了友谊。然后我们开始谈论在他涉及的高级珠宝领域，缺乏面向自行购买珠宝的女性的产品和品牌。
So everything was about the man buying the Christmas gift, the man buying the engagement ring. The stores felt like that. They were all tailored towards the male aesthetic. The marketing felt like that. And what about the woman who had a salary and was really excited to buy herself a great pair of earrings or had just received a great bonus. And was going to use it to treat herself. So we thought there was a void in the marketplace. And that was the first category I launched Ivanka Trump fine jewelry.
所以一切似乎都是围绕着男人为女人购买圣诞礼物或订婚戒指在进行。商店的氛围就是那样，全都是为了迎合男性的审美而设计的，营销也是如此。那么，那些有收入的女性呢？那些对自己购买一副漂亮耳环感到兴奋或者刚刚获得奖金并打算犒劳自己的女性呢？我们觉得市场上在这个方面存在空白。因此，我推出了Ivanka Trump高档珠宝的第一个系列。
And we just caught lightning in a bottle. It was really quickly after that. I met my partner who had founded Nine Wess Shoes, really capable partner. And we launched a shoe collection, which took off and did enormously well. And then a clothing collection and handbags and sunglasses and fragrance. So we caught a moment and we found a positioning for this for the self purchasing multi-dimensional woman.
我们真的是抓住了一个绝佳的机会。就在那之后不久，我遇到了我的合作伙伴——Nine West鞋的创始人，他是个非常有能力的伙伴。我们推出了一个鞋子系列，这个系列非常成功，并且迅速走红。接着，我们又推出了服装系列、手袋、太阳镜和香水。这一切都是因为我们抓住了时代的机遇，找到了适合自我购买、多面女性的市场定位。
And we made dressing for work aspirational. At the time we launched, if you wanted to buy something for an office context, like the brands that existed were at the opposite of exciting. Like nobody was, you know, taking pictures of like what they were wearing to work and and and posting it online with some of these classic legacy brands. Really, it felt very much like it was designed by a team of men for what a woman would want to wear to the office.
我们让穿着上班变得有追求。在我们推出产品的时候，如果你想买一些适合办公室场合的服装，以前的品牌都显得相当无趣。没有人会兴奋地拍照并在网上分享他们穿着那些经典传统品牌去上班的样子。那些衣服真的让人觉得像是一群男人在设计他们认为女性上班时该穿的衣服。
So we started creating this clothing that was feminine, that was beautiful, that was versatile, that would take a woman from the boardroom to an after school soccer game to date night with a boyfriend to a walk in the park with their husband, like all the the different ways women live their lives and creating a wardrobe for that woman who works at every aspect of their life, not just sort of the siloed professional part.
所以我们开始设计这种女性化、美观且多功能的服装，它能满足女性在生活中不同角色的需求。无论是从会议室到课后足球比赛、与男友的约会之夜，还是与丈夫在公园散步，这种服装都能轻松应对。我们为这样的女性打造了一个衣橱，这个衣橱不仅适用于职业场合，还适用于生活的各个方面。
And it was it was really compelling. We started creating great brand content and we had incredible contributors like Adam Grant, who was who was blogging for us at the time and creating aspirational content for for working women. It was actually kind of a funny story, but I now had probably close to 11 different product categories and we were growing like wildfire.
这真的非常引人入胜。我们开始创造出色的品牌内容，并且有像亚当·格兰特这样的杰出贡献者。当时他为我们撰写博客，创造出激励职场女性的内容。这其实是个挺有趣的故事，不过那时我已发展了大约11个不同的产品类别，我们的业务增长如同野火般迅速。
And I started to think about what would be a compelling way to sort of create interesting content for the people who are buying these these different categories. And we came up with a website called Women Who Work. And I went to a marketing agency, you know, one of the fancy firms in New York. And I said, you know, we want to create a brand campaign around this multi-dimensional woman who works. And what do you think? Like, can you help us? And they come back and they say, you know, we don't like the word work. We think it should be women who do. And I just started laughing because I'm like, women who do. And the fact that they couldn't conceive of it being sort of exciting and aspirational and interesting to sort of lean into to working at at all aspects of our lives was just fascinating to me, but showed that that was part of the problem.
我开始思考如何以一种吸引人的方式为购买这些不同类别产品的人创造有趣的内容。于是，我们想出了一个叫做“职场女性”的网站。我去了一家纽约著名的营销公司，告诉他们我们想围绕这个多维度的职场女性创建一个品牌活动，并询问他们的意见和帮助。然而，他们回复说不喜欢“工作”这个词，觉得应该叫“行动女性”。我当时忍不住笑了，因为“行动女性”这个词感觉怪怪的。他们无法想象“工作”在我们生活的各个方面可以是激动人心、富有启发性和有趣的，这让我感到很有意思，也让我意识到这其实是问题的一部分。
And I think that's why ultimately, I mean, when the business grew to be hundreds of millions of dollars in sales, we were distributed at all the best retailers across the country from, you know, Neman Marcus to Sachs to Bloomingdale's and Beyond. And I think we, it really resonated with people in an amazing way. And probably not dissimilar to how I have this incredible experience every time somebody comes up to me and tells me that they were married in a space that I had painstakingly designed. I have that experience now with with my fashion company, the number of women who will come up tell me that they they loved my shoes or they loved the handbags. And I've had women show me their engagement rings. They got engaged with us. And it's really rewarding. It's really beautiful.
我想，这就是为什么当我们的业务增长到数亿美元的销售额时，我们在全国最好的零售商都有分销，从 Neiman Marcus 到 Saks 再到 Bloomingdale's 等等。我们的产品真正引起了人们的共鸣。这种体验可能不亚于每次有人告诉我他们是在我精心设计的地方结婚时的那种美好经历。现在，我在我的时尚公司也有这样的体验，许多女性会告诉我她们喜爱我的鞋子或手提包，有的女性还会给我看她们的订婚戒指，说她们是在我们的产品陪伴下订婚的。这真是让人感到欣慰和美好。
Yeah, when I was hanging out with you and my amy, the number of women that came up to you saying they love the the clothes you made love the shoes is awesome. All these years later. All these years later. Yeah. What does it take to make a shoe where somebody would come up to you years later and just be just full of love for this thing you've created? What's what's that mean? Like what does it take to do that? Well, I still wear the shoes. I mean, that's a good starting point, right? It's a great thing that you want to wear. I feel like the the product, I think first and foremost, you have to have the right partner. So shoe building a shoe if you talk to a great shoe designer, it's like it's architecture. Like making a heel that's four inches that feels good to walk in for eight hours a day. That is an engineering feat.
当然，当我和你还有我的朋友艾米一起出去玩的时候，有很多女性走过来夸赞你设计的衣服和鞋子真是太棒了。多年以后仍然如此。对呀。要做出一双多年后人们仍然爱不释手的鞋子，需要付出什么样的努力呢？这意味着什么？怎么做到的呢？嗯，其实我自己还在穿这些鞋子，这应该是个不错的开始，对吧？一个伟大的作品就是自己也愿意穿。我觉得做产品，首先最关键的是要有一个好的合作伙伴。制造鞋子，如果你和一个顶尖的鞋子设计师交流，就像是建筑设计。比如说，设计一双四英寸高的高跟鞋，而且穿上走八个小时仍然感觉舒适，这简直就是一项工程壮举。
And so I found great partners in everything that I did. My my shoe partner had founded nine west. So he really knew what went into making a shoe wearable and comfortable. And then you overlay that with great design. And we also created this really comfortable beautifully designed super feminine product offering that was also affordably priced. So I think it was like the trifect of those of those three things that that made that I think it made it stand out for so many people.
因此，在我所做的每一件事情中，我都找到了很好的合作伙伴。我的鞋类合作伙伴创立了Nine West，他非常了解如何制作既舒适又适合穿的鞋子。然后，我们在此基础上加入了出色的设计，创造出了一种非常舒适、美观且充满女性魅力的产品，而且价格也很实惠。我认为正是这三方面的完美结合，使我们的产品在众多人中脱颖而出。
Can you speak to I don't know if it's possible to articulate, but can you speak to the process you go through from my idea to the final thing? Like what you go through to bring an idea to life. So not being a designer and this was true in real estate as well. I was never the architect. So I didn't necessarily have the pen and in fashion the same. I was kind of like a conductor. I was I knew what I liked and didn't like. And I think that's really important. And that became honed for me over time. So I would have to sit a lot longer with something earlier on than later when I had more refined my aesthetic point of view.
你能谈谈这个过程吗？我不知道是否能用语言表达清楚，但你能解释一下从我有一个想法到最终实现的整个过程吗？也就是说，你是如何将一个想法变为现实的。因为我不是设计师，在房地产行业时也是如此，我从未是建筑师，所以我不一定会亲自执笔。在时尚界也是一样，我更像是一位指挥家。我知道自己喜欢什么和不喜欢什么，我认为这很重要。这是我随着时间的推移逐渐磨炼出来的。所以在一开始，我往往需要花更多时间去琢磨某个东西，而当后来我的审美观点更清晰时，这种情况就有所改善。
And so I think first of all, you have to have a pretty strong sense of of what resonates with you. And then as in the case of my fashion business as a grew and became quite a large business and I had so many different categories. Everything had to work together. So I had individual partners for each category. But if we were selling at Neiman Marcus, we couldn't have a pair of shoes that didn't relate to address that didn't relate to a pair of sunglasses and handbags all on the same floor. So in the beginning, it was much more collaborative.
首先，我认为你需要对什么与你产生共鸣有一个很强的感觉。就像我经营的时尚业务一样，随着它的发展和壮大，涵盖了很多不同的类别。一切都必须协调运作。所以，我为每个类别都找了专门的合作伙伴。但如果我们在 Neiman Marcus 销售产品，不能出现一双鞋跟一件连衣裙不搭配，或者一副太阳镜和手袋不协调的情况，这些都在同一个楼层出售。所以在最开始的时候，协作是非常重要的。
As time passed, I really sort of took the point on deciding and this is the aesthetic for the season. These are the colors we're going to use. These are fabrics. And then working with our partners on the execution of that. But I needed to create an overlay that allowed for cohesion as the collection grew. And that was actually really fun for me because that was a little different. I was typically initially responding to things that were put in front of me and towards the end, it was my partners who were responding to the things that myself and my team. But it's still, I always wanted to bring the best talent in. So I was hiring great designers and print makers and copy writers. So I had this almost like that conductor analogy. I had this incredible group of, in this case, women assembled who had very strong points of view themselves and created a great team.
随着时间的推移，我逐渐承担起决定这个季节审美方向的任务。我们确定了要使用的颜色和面料，然后与合作伙伴一起实现这些想法。但我需要创建一个能够让整个系列保持统一的整体框架。这对我来说很有趣，因为这有些不同。起初，我通常是回应摆在我面前的事物，而到最后，是我的合作伙伴们回应我和我的团队的想法。不过，我始终希望引入最优秀的人才。因此，我聘用了优秀的设计师、印刷工和文案人员。就像乐团指挥一样，我组建了一支由有着强烈个人见解的女性组成的杰出团队。
So yeah, I mean, great team is really sort of essential. It's the essential thing behind any successful story. But there's this thing of taste. It's really interesting. It's hard to kind of articulate what it takes, but basically knowing A versus B will looks good. Or without AB comparison to say like, if we did, if we changed this part, that would make it better. That sort of designer taste that's hard to make explicit what that is. But the great designers like have that taste. Like this is going to look good. And it's not actually, again, the Steve Jobs thing is not the opinion, like you can't pull people asking what looks better. It's you got to have the vision of that. And as you said, you also have to develop eventually the confidence that your taste is good such that you can like curate your direct teams.
所以，是的，我的意思是，一个优秀的团队确实很重要，这是任何成功故事背后的关键。但还有关于品味的事情，这特别有趣。很难具体说清楚它需要什么，但基本上就是知道哪个选项更好看，或者即使没有对比也能说出改变某个部分会让事情变得更好。这种设计师的品味很难明确表达，但优秀的设计师都具备这种品味。他们知道什么会好看。这其实不是那种你可以通过询问别人哪个看起来更好来判断的事情，而是你需要有自己的愿景。正如你所说的，你还必须培养出对自己品味的信心，以便能够指导和管理你的团队。
You can argue that no, no, no, this is right. Even when there's several people that say this doesn't make any sense. If you have that vision, have the confidence, this will look good. That's how you come up with great designs. It's a mix, it makes sure great taste is you develop over time and the confidence. And that's a really hard thing, especially. And I think one of the things that I love most about all of these creative pursuits is that ability to work with the best people right now. I'm working with my husband. We have this 1400 acre island in the Mediterranean. And we're bringing in the best architects and the best brands. But to have a point of view and to challenge people who are such artists respectfully, but not to be afraid to ask questions, it takes a lot of confidence to do that. And it's hard.
你可以坚持认为“不，这才是对的”，即使有很多人说这没有道理。如果你有这样的愿景，并且有信心，这将会是很好的设计成果。这种能力是品味和信心的结合，是随着时间的推移慢慢培养出来的。这确实是一件很难做到的事情。我特别喜欢所有这些创意追求中的一件事，就是能够与顶尖的人才合作。目前，我和我丈夫在工作，我们拥有一座位于地中海的1400英亩的岛屿。我们正与顶级建筑师和品牌合作。要有自己的观点，并尊重地挑战那些优秀的艺术家们，同时不害怕提出问题，这需要极大的信心，而这并不容易。
So these are actually just internal early rendering. So we're in the process of doing the master planning now. But this is beautiful. Yeah, this is an early vision. Yeah. It's going to be extraordinary. A man's going to operate the hotel for us. And they're going to be villas. And we have carbon who's going to be doing the food and beverage. But it's amazing to bring together all of this talent. And for me to be able to play around and flex the real estate muscles again and have some fun with it. It is the real estate that design the art. How hard is it to bring something like that to life? Because that's like, that looks surreal out of this world.
所以这些其实只是内部的早期渲染图。我们目前正在进行总体规划。不过，这看起来很美。是的，这是一个早期的构想。是的，这将非常不凡。一个团队将为我们运营酒店，并且会有别墅。我们还请来了Carbon公司来负责食品和饮料。这次汇聚了这么多的人才，真让人惊叹。对我来说，能够再次在房地产领域施展才华并享受其中的乐趣，真是太好了。正是这个房地产项目设计了这些艺术。将这样的想法变成现实有多难？因为看起来就像是超现实的，仿佛来自另一个世界。
Well, especially on an island. It's challenging, meaning the logistics of even getting the building materials to an island or no joke. But we will execute on it. So and it may not be this, this is sort of as I said early conceptual drawings, but it gives a sense of sort of wanting to honor the topography that exists. And this is obviously very modern. But making it feel right in terms of the context of the vegetation and the train that exists is and not just have a beautiful glass box. Obviously you want glass. You want to look out and see that gorgeous blue ocean. But how do you do that in a way that doesn't feel generic and isn't a squandered opportunity to create something new?
好吧，特别是在岛上，确实有挑战性。就连把建筑材料运送到岛上也是个大问题。不过我们会做好。正如我所说，这只是早期的概念设计，但它展示了一种想要尊重现有地形的意图。虽然设计显得非常现代，但我们希望在植被和已有的地形上下功夫，让它融入其中，而不仅仅是建造一个漂亮的玻璃盒。当然，你会想要使用玻璃，这样可以望出去看到美丽的蓝色海洋。但是，如何在这个过程中做到不普通，并且不浪费这个创造新事物的机会呢？
Yeah, and it's integrated with a natural landscape. It's a celebration of the natural landscape around it. So I guess you start from this dream like because this feels like a dream. And then when you're faced with the reality of the building materials and all the actual constraints of the building, then it evolves from there. Yeah, and so much, I mean so much of architecture you don't see, but it's decisions made. So how do you create independent structures where you look out of one and don't see the other? How do you ensure the sort of the stacking and the master plan works in a way that's harmonious and view corridors and all of those elements, all of those components of decision making are super appreciated, but not often thought about.
是的，这个设计与自然景观融为一体，庆祝了周围的自然环境。所以，我想你可以从一个梦境般的概念开始，因为这感觉就像一个梦想。但是，当你面对建筑材料的实际情况和各种限制时，设计就从这里开始演变。建筑有很多东西是你看不到的，但都是经过深思熟虑的决定。那么，如何创建独立的结构，让你从一个窗户向外看时，不会看到其他建筑？如何确保整个叠加和总体规划以一种和谐的方式运作，包括视野走廊等所有这些元素？这些决策的组成部分是非常值得赞赏的，但却往往不被人重视。
What's a view corridor? Like to make sure that the top unit, you're not looking out and seeing a whole bunch of units, you're looking out and seeing the ocean. So that's where you take this and then you start angling everything and you start thinking about, well, in this context, do we have green roof? So if there's any hint of a roof, it's camouflage by vegetation that matches what already exists on the island where the engineers become very important.
什么是景观廊道？这是指确保从最高的单元看出去时，看到的不是一堆建筑单元，而是大海。为此，需要调整建筑的设计角度，并考虑在这个环境下是否设置绿化屋顶。如果屋顶可见，就用植被来进行伪装，使其与岛上现有的植被相匹配。在这一过程中，工程师的作用非常重要。
Yeah, so how do you build into a mountain side while being sensitive to the beauty and of the island? It's almost like a mathematical problem. I took a class competition geometry in grad school where you have to think about these view corridors. It's like a math problem. Yeah. Well, but it's also an art problem because it's not just about making sure that there's not occlusions to the view. You have to figure out when there's occlusions, what's a vegetation? Do you have to figure all that out?
是的，那么在建造一个依山而建的项目时，如何同时顾及到岛屿的美丽呢？这就像一个数学问题。我在研究生时上过一个关于几何竞争的课程，讲的是如何考虑那些视野走廊。就像一个数学问题一样。是的，但这也是艺术方面的问题，因为不仅仅是要确保视野没有被遮挡。你需要弄清楚什么时候有遮挡，是什么植物在起作用？你得把这些都考虑进去。
There's probably every single room, every single building is a thing that adds extra complexity. And then the choices, how does the Sun Rise and Set? Yeah. So how do you want to angle the hotel and relation to the Sun Rise and the Sun Set? Do you obviously want people to experience those? So which do you favor? The directionality of the wind? And on an island, and in this case, the wind is coming from the north and the vegetation is less lush on the northern end. So do you focus more on the southern end and have the horseback riding trails and amenities up towards the north?
每一个房间、每一栋建筑都可能增加额外的复杂性。然后还有这些选择，比如太阳是如何升起和落下的？是的。你希望酒店如何面对日出和日落？你显然希望人们能够体验这些，所以你偏向哪个方向呢？还有风的方向。在这个岛上，风是从北面吹来的，北端的植被较少。所以你会更关注南面，把骑马道和其他设施安排在北边吗？
So there are these really interesting decisions and choices you get to reflect on. That's a fascinating sort of discussion to be having. And probably there's actual constraints on infrastructure issues. So all the thoughts of the land. Yeah, well, the rate of the land, if it's super steep, so also finding the areas of topography that are flatter but still have the great views. So it's fun. I think real estate and building, it's like a giant puzzle. And I love puzzles. Every piece relates to another and it's all sort of interconnected.
所以，有一些非常有趣的决定和选择值得你去思考。这是一个很有趣的讨论话题。可能还存在关于基础设施问题的实际限制。至于土地的情况，是的，如果地势非常陡峭，找到地形较平坦但仍然具有良好视野的区域也是一项挑战。这很有趣。我认为房地产和建筑就像一个巨大的拼图，而我喜欢拼图。每一块都与其他部分相关联，而且这些都是相互连接的。
Yeah, like you said, no post office, like every single room is different. So every single room is a puzzle when you're doing their renovation. That's fascinating. And if you're not thoughtful, it gets like at best, really quirky. At worst, completely ridiculous. Quirky is such a funny word. I'm sure you've walked into your fair share of like quirky rooms. And sometimes like that's charming. But most often, it's charming when it's intentional through like smart design.
是啊，就像你说的，没有邮局，每个房间都不一样。所以在翻新时，每个房间都像一个谜题。这很有趣。如果不仔细思考，结果可能至多是非常奇特，至少是完全荒唐。奇特这个词真的很有趣。我相信你也见过不少像这样奇特的房间。有时候，这种奇特还挺有魅力的，但更多时候，当它通过聪明的设计有意呈现时，才会显得特别有吸引力。
Yeah, you can tell if it's by accident or if it's intentional, you can tell so much. I mean, the whole hospitality thing is it's not just like how it's designed. It's how once the thing is operating for the hotel, like how everything comes together, the culture of the place. And the warmth. Yeah, like I think with spaces, they, you can feel like the soul of a structure. And I think on the hotel side, you have to think about like flow of traffic. You saw these things.
是啊，你可以分辨出某件事是偶然的还是故意的，这能透露出很多信息。我的意思是，酒店的待客之道不仅仅体现在设计上，而是体现在酒店投入运营之后的方方面面，比如一切事务如何协调进行，场所的文化，还有那种温暖的氛围。对，我觉得在空间上，你能够感受到一个结构的灵魂。而在酒店方面，你必须考虑人流动线之类的问题。你明白这些东西的。
When you're building condominiums or your own home, you want to think about like the warmth of a space as well. And especially with super modern design, sometimes like warmth is sacrificed. And I think there is a way to sort of marry both. And that's where you get into sort of the interior design elements and disciplines and how fabrics can create tremendous warmth in a space, which is otherwise sort of colder, raw building materials.
当你在建造公寓或自己的家时，你也需要考虑空间的温暖感。尤其是在超级现代的设计中，这种温暖感有时会被牺牲掉。但我认为可以找到一种方法来兼顾这两者。这就涉及到室内设计的元素和技巧，比如通过使用各种织物来为空间增添温暖感，以弥补那些显得冷淡、生硬的建筑材料。
And that's a really interesting, like how texture matters, how color matters. And I think oftentimes interior design is not, it doesn't take the same priority. And I think that underestimate the impact it can have on how you experience a room or a space. Yeah, especially when it's working together with the architecture. Yeah, fabrics and color, it's so interesting. Finishes, you know, the choice of wood. That's making me feel horrible about the space we're sitting.
这确实很有趣，比如说质感和颜色的重要性。很多时候，室内设计并没有被放在优先的位置，我认为这低估了它对你体验一个房间或空间的影响。尤其是当它与建筑本身相互作用时，布料和颜色，真的很有趣。还有饰面，比如木材的选择。想到这一点，让我对我们现在坐的这个空间感到很不满意。
It's like black curtains. The warmth, I need to work on this. This is a big two. This is a big two item. You're making me feel like you made me, there may be like a woman's touch. I actually, I appreciate the vegetation. Yeah, fake plants. You know what I love about this space, though, is it is like you come through like every single element. There's a story behind it.
这就像是黑色的帘幕。我需要努力去感受这种温暖。这是一个重要的事情。这确实很重要。你让我感觉好像是你创造的，这其中可能有一种女性的细腻。我其实挺喜欢这里的植物装饰的。是的，假植物。你知道我喜欢这个空间的是什么吗？那就是每个元素背后都有一个故事。
So it's not just some, you didn't have some interior design or curate your bookshelf. You know, there's like nobody came in here with books by the yard. This is basically an IKEA. Like this is not, this is not deeply thought through, but it does bring me joy. Yeah. Which is one way to do design, as long as you're happy, that usually means if your taste is decent enough, that means others will be happy or we'll see the joy radiate through it.
所以这不只是一些简单的室内设计或对书架的精心布置。并不是有人过来打造了一面书墙。这基本上就是宜家的风格，这并没有经过深思熟虑的设计，但它确实让我感到快乐。是的，这也是一种设计方式，只要你自己开心，这通常意味着如果你的品味足够好，其他人也会感到开心，或者至少能看到其中传递出的快乐。
But I appreciate you were grasping for complements. You've been she got that. No, I actually, I love it. I love it. Do you have like a little, I love this guy. Yeah, you're holding onto a monkey looking at a, at a, at a human skull, which is particularly irrelevant. And this, I mean, I feel like you've really thought about all of these. Yeah. There's, there's robot, I don't know, I mean, I don't know how much you looked into robots, but there's, there's a way to communicate love and affection from a robot that I'm really fascinated by. And a lot of cartoonists do this too. You have to, when you create cartoons and non-human-like entities, you have to bring out the joy. So with Wally or robots and, and Star Wars, to be able to communicate emotion, to anger and excitement through robots really interesting to me. And people that do it successfully are awesome. To make you smile. Yeah, that makes you smile for sure. There's a longing there.
但我知道你在努力寻找赞美的词汇。我明白了。其实，我很喜欢这样的表达。你有没有那种类似的感觉，我很喜欢这个人。是的，你手里拿着一个猴子在看一个人类的头骨，这在某种程度上特别有意思。我的意思是，我觉得你真的仔细考虑了这些。机器人，我不知道你对机器人的了解有多深入，但机器人也有一种传达爱和情感的方式，我对此非常着迷。很多漫画家也这样做。在创作卡通和非人类实体时，你必须把快乐表现出来。像瓦力（WALL-E）或星球大战中的机器人那样，它们能够通过机器人来传达情感、愤怒和兴奋，对我来说真的很有趣。那些能成功做到的人真的很棒。这确实会让你微笑。那里有一种渴望。
How do you do that successfully as you, as you bring them your projects to life? I think there's, there's so many detailed elements that I think artists know well. But one basic one is something that people know and you know, know because you have a, a dog is the excitement that a dog has when it, when you first show up, just the recognizing you and like, catching your eye and just showing his excitement by wiggling his butt and tail and all this kind of this, this, intense joy that overtakes his body, that, that moment of recognizing something. Yeah. It's the double take that you, that, that moment of like where this joy of recognition takes over your whole cognition and you're just like, uh, there and there's a connection. And then the other person gets excited and you both get excited together. Um, it's kind of like that feeling, what would I put it? You know, like when you go to airports and you get to see people uh, who haven't seen each other for a long time, also, and recognize each other in their meeting and they're all like, run towards each other in the hug, and that moment, uh, whether that's awesome to watch or somebody's joy.
你如何成功地将这些项目呈现给他们，把这些项目变为现实？我认为有很多细节是艺术家非常了解的。但有一个基本的元素是所有人都知道的，而你也知道，因为你有一只狗。那就是当你第一次出现时，狗所表现出的兴奋：识别你、与你对视，并通过摇晃尾巴和身体表达它的极度快乐，那一刻的认知是充满喜悦的。这就像是一个“二次确认”的瞬间，这种认知的喜悦笼罩你的整个思维，让你沉浸在当下，与他人产生联结。而另一方被你的兴奋感染，你们都因此变得兴奋。这种感觉就像是在机场看到那些分开已久的人们重新相聚时，他们认出对方，会奔向对方，紧紧拥抱在一起的瞬间。这种场景让人感到喜悦和感动。
And dogs that will have that every time you could walk into the other room to get a glass of milk and you come back and your dog sees you like, it's the first time. Yeah. So I love replicating that in robots. They actually say children, like one of the reasons why peekaboo is so successful is that they actually don't remember not having seen you a few seconds prior. There's a there's a term for it. But I remember as, um, when when my kids were younger, you leave the room and you walk back in 30 seconds later and they experienced the same joy as if you had been, you know, gone for four hours. And uh, we grew out of that. We become very used to one another. I kind of went up forever to be excited by the peekaboo phenomena. The simple joy is we're talking about on fashion, having the confidence of taste to be able to sort of push through on this idea of a design.
当你走进另一个房间去拿一杯牛奶，然后回来时，狗狗每次都会像第一次见到你一样兴奋。我很喜欢在机器人中复制这种体验。研究表明，打“躲猫猫”游戏之所以能让小孩子如此开心，是因为他们其实不记得几秒钟前没有看到你的情景。我记得，当我的孩子还小的时候，我离开房间，30秒后再回来，他们会像你离开了好几个小时一样高兴。然而，我们逐渐习惯了彼此，不再对这种“躲猫猫”的现象感到兴奋。我们在谈论简单的快乐，比如在时尚上有足够的自信去实现一个设计理念。
But you've also mentioned, um, in some of you admires Rick Rubin in his book, The Creative Act. It has some really interesting ideas. And one of them is to accept, uh, self-doubt and imperfection. So is there some battle within yourself that you have on sort of, um, striving for perfection and for the confidence and always kind of having it together versus like accepting that things are always going to be imperfect? I think every day. I think I wake up in the morning and, you know, I want to be better. I want to be a better mom. I want to be a better wife. I want to be more creative. I want to be physically stronger. And, um, and so that very much lives within me all the time. You know, I think I, I also grew up in the context of being the child of two extraordinarily successful parents. And that could have been debilitating for me.
你也提到过你很欣赏里克·鲁宾在他的书《创造力法则》中的一些有趣观点，其中一个就是要接受自我怀疑和不完美。那么，在追求完美、建立自信并总是努力做到最好这方面，你是否在内心中有过某种斗争，同时又要接受事物总是不完美的事实？
我认为我是每天都有这样的斗争。我每天早上醒来，都希望自己能变得更好，成为更好的妈妈、更好的妻子、更有创造力、更强壮。因此，这种想法一直都存在于我的内心。我还认为，我成长在两个极其成功的父母的背景下，这一点对我来说可能是一个巨大的压力。
And I saw that and a lot of my friends who grew up in circumstances similar to that. They were afraid to try for fear of not measuring up. And I think somehow early on I learned to kind of harness the fear of not being good enough, not being competent enough. Um, and I harnessed it to make me better, um, and, and to push me outside of my comfort zone. So I think that's always lived with me. And, and, and I think it probably always will, I think you have to have humility in anything you do that you could be better. And, and strive for that. I think as you get older, it softens a little bit as you have more reps. You know, as you have more examples of, of having been thrown in the deep end, um, and figured out how to swim, you, you get a little bit more comfortable in your sort of abstract competency. But if that fear is not in you, I think you're not challenging yourself enough.
我看到，我的许多朋友也是在类似的环境中长大的。他们因为害怕达不到要求而不敢尝试。而我好像在很早的时候就学会了如何利用这种不够好、不够胜任的恐惧。我利用这种恐惧来让自己变得更好，推动自己走出舒适区。我想这种感觉一直伴随着我，并且会一直存在。我觉得不论做什么事情，都需要有谦逊的态度，认识到自己还可以更好，并为此努力。随着年龄的增长和经验的积累，我们在面对挑战时会变得稍微镇定一些，就像多次被扔进深水区后学会游泳一样，逐渐对自身潜在的能力有了更多的信心。但如果内心没有这种恐惧感，我认为就没有在足够地挑战自己。
Harnessed the fear. Um, the other thing he writes about is intuition. That you need to trust your instincts and intuition. That's a very recruitment thing to say. So what percent of your decision-making is intuition or what percent is through rigorous, careful analysis? Would you say? I think it's both. It's like trust would verify. You know, I think you, I think that's also where, um, age and experience comes into play because I think you always have sort of a gut instinct. But I think intuition, like well-honed intuition comes from a place of, of accumulated knowledge, right?
驯服了恐惧。他还写到直觉。你需要相信你的直觉和本能。这种说法在招聘领域非常常见。那么你觉得在决策过程中，有多少是凭直觉，多少是通过严格仔细的分析呢？我认为两者都有点像"信任但要验证"。我觉得这也是年龄和经验发挥作用的地方，因为你总会有一种直觉。但是，我认为良好的直觉来源于积累的知识，对吧？
So oftentimes when you feel really strongly about something, it's because you've sort of, you've been there, like you know what's right. Um, or on a personal level, if you're acting in accordance with your core values, you know, it just feels good. And even if it would be the right decision for others, if you're acting outside of, of your sort of integrity or core values, it doesn't feel good. And, and it, you know, your intuition will signal that to you. You'll never be, you'll never be comfortable.
有时候，当你对某件事情有强烈的感觉时，那是因为你可能已经经历过类似的情况，你知道什么是对的。个人层面上，如果你的行为符合自己的核心价值观，你会觉得很舒服。即便对别人来说那是对的选择，但如果违背了你的诚信或核心价值观，你会感到不安。你的直觉会提醒你这一点，让你始终无法感到心安。
So I think because, because of that, I start oftentimes with my intuition and then I, and then I put it through like a rigorous test of, of, uh, whether that is, in fact, true. Um, but very seldom do I go against what my initial instinct was, not at least at this point in my life. Yeah, I had actually a discussion yesterday with a big-time business owner investor who's talking about being impulsive and following that. Like on a phone call, shifting like the entire everything, like giving away a very large amounts of money and moving it in another direction on an impulse, making a promise that he can't at that time deliver, but knows if he works hard, he'll deliver and all doing just following that impulsive feeling.
所以我常常先依靠直觉来做决定，然后再进行严格的验证，以确认这种直觉是否准确。不过，现在的我很少违背最初的直觉。昨天我和一位非常成功的企业家兼投资者讨论过这个问题，他谈到冲动行事和跟随直觉。在一个电话中，他可能会突然改变一切，把大量资金转移到另一个方向，虽然当时无法兑现承诺，但他相信只要努力，就能实现这一目标。他正是依靠这种冲动的感觉来行事。
And he said now that, you know, he has, has a family that probably some of the impulse is quite a down a little bit. He's more rational and thoughtful and so on, but wonders whether it's sometimes good to just be impulsive and to just trust your gut and just go with it. Don't deliberate too long because then you won't, you won't do it. It's interesting. It's the confidence and stupidity maybe of youth that leads to some of the greatest breakthroughs and it's like, there's a cost to wisdom and deliberation. There is, but I actually think in this case, as you get older, you may act less impulsively, but I think you're more like attuned with, you have more experience, so your gut is like more well-honed.
他说，现在有了家庭后，他的冲动可能有所减少，变得更理性和深思熟虑。但他也在思考，有时候是否应该坚持冲动行事，信任自己的直觉，不要思考太久，因为那样可能就不会去做了。这很有趣，年轻时的自信和大胆或许能带来一些重大的突破，但智慧和深思熟虑也有代价。不过，我认为随着年龄的增长，你可能会减少冲动行事，但同时你也积累了更多经验，因此你的直觉变得更加敏锐。
You know, so your instincts are more well-honed. I think I found that to be true for me. You know, it doesn't feel as like reckless as when I was younger. Amongst many other things, you were on the apprentice. People love you on there. People love the show. So what did you learn about business, about life from the various contestants on there? Well, I think you can learn everything about life from show workers. So I'm just, I'm going to go with that. It's amazing. But you know, it was such a wild experience for me because I was quite young when I was on it just getting started in business.
你知道的，所以你的直觉会变得更加敏锐。我觉得对我来说确实如此。你知道，现在感觉不再像年轻时那样鲁莽。在许多其他事情中，你参加了《学徒》节目，大家都很喜欢你，也很喜欢这个节目。你从那里的各种参赛者中学到了什么关于商业和生活的经验呢？嗯，我认为你能从节目参与者身上学到关于生活的一切。这真的很神奇。但对我来说，这是一次非常惊奇的经历，因为我参加节目的时候还很年轻，只是刚刚开始涉足商业。
And it was the number one television show in the country. And it went on to be syndicated all over the world. And it was just this wild, like phenomenal success. So, you know, business show had never, had never crossed over in this sort of way. So it was really a moment in time. And you had regular apprentice and then the celebrity apprentice. But, but the tasks, I mean, they went on to be studied at business schools across the country. So every other week, I'd be reading case studies of how the apprentice was being examined and taught to classes in this university in Boston.
这是当时全国排名第一的电视节目，并在全球范围内进行发行，取得了惊人的成功。在此之前，从来没有哪个商业节目能以这种方式成功。这真是一个历史性的时刻。节目有普通版和名人版，《学徒》中的任务甚至被全国各地的商学院研究。每隔一周，我就会看到波士顿的一所大学中，学生们学习如何分析和教授《学徒》节目的案例研究。
Or, you know, so it was extraordinary. And this was like a real-life classroom I was in. So I think because of the nature of the show, you learn a lot about, you know, teamwork. And you're watching it and analyzing it real time. You learned a lot about, a lot of the tasks were very marketing-oriented because of, you know, the short duration of time they had to execute. A lot of you learned a lot about time management because of that short duration. So, you know, almost every episode would devolve into people hysterical over the fact that they had 10 minutes left to with this Herkulean lift ahead of them.
或者，说实话，那真是非同寻常。这就像是我待在一个真实的课堂里。我想，因为这个节目的性质，你能学到很多关于团队合作的知识。当你在观看和实时分析时，真的能学到很多。由于任务需要在很短的时间内完成，大部分任务都非常注重市场营销。因此，你会学到很多关于时间管理的知识。几乎每集节目到最后，人们都会因为只剩下10分钟来完成一项艰巨的任务而变得歇斯底里。
So it was a fascinating, it was a fascinating experience for me. And we would be filming. I mean, we would film first thing in the morning at like five or six a.m. in Trump Tower oftentimes, like in the lobby of Trump Tower, that's where the war rooms and board rooms of the candidates were, the contestants were. And then we would go up in the elevator to our office. We would work all day and then we'd come down and we'd evaluate the tasks. It was a weird like real-life television thing experience in the middle of our sort of on the book ends of our work day.
这是一个非常吸引人的经历。我们的拍摄通常是在清晨五六点钟在特朗普大厦进行的。很多时候是在大厦的大堂，那里的战情室和会议室是选手们的所在地。然后我们会乘电梯上楼去我们的办公室，工作一整天，之后再下来评估各项任务。这是一种奇特的、像是现实版的电视体验，贯穿在我们工作日的开端和结尾。
So it was intense. So you're like curating the television version of it and also living it. And oftentimes there was like an overlay, like there were episodes that they came up with brand campaigns for my shoe collection or my clothing line or design challenges related to a hotel that was responsible for building. So there was this unbelievable crossover that was obviously great for us from a business perspective that is sometimes surreal to do experience. What was it like? Was it was it scary to be in front of a camera when you know so many people watch? I mean, that's a new experience video at that time, just the number of people watching. Yeah. Was that weird? It was really weird. I really struggled watching myself on the episodes. I still to this day like television as a medium, like the fact that we're taping this. I'm more self-conscious than if we weren't. I just, it's um, hey, I have to watch myself.
所以，这段时间非常紧张。你就像是在参与制作一个电视节目的版本，同时也亲身经历其中。而且，常常是两者重叠，比如他们在某些集里为我的鞋履系列或服装线策划了品牌宣传活动，或者安排了一些与我负责建造的酒店相关的设计挑战。所以，这种难以置信的交叉显然从商业角度来说对我们是极好的，但有时去体验这些事物让人感到不真实。那感觉如何？当你知道有那么多人在看时，站在镜头前是否感到害怕？我意思是，当时视频有那么多观众是个全新的体验。是的，那感觉很奇怪。我真的很难看自己出演的剧集。到今天为止，我仍然觉得电视作为一种媒介让人不安，特别是在我们录节目时，比方说，我会比不录节目时更加自觉。只是，嗯，我必须看着自己。
After we record this before I publish it, I have to listen to my stupid self talk. So you're saying it doesn't get better. It doesn't get better. I still, I feel myself. I'm like, does my voice really sound like that? Why do I do this thing or that thing? I find it some people are super at ease and who knows? Maybe they're not either, but some people feel like they're stupid. You know, my father was. I think like who you saw as who you get. And I think that made him so effective in that medium, because he was just himself and he was totally unself-conscious. I was not. I was totally self-conscious. So it was extraordinary, but also a little challenging for me. I think certain people are just born to be entertainers. Elvis, on stage, they come to life. Yeah. This is where they, this is where they're truly happy. I've met, I've met guys like, they're like great rock stars. This is where they feel like they belong on stages.
在录音后、发布之前，我必须听着自己无聊地说话。你是说这没什么好转的吗？没有好转。我依然这样，感觉自己的声音真的是这样吗？为什么我会有这些习惯或那些习惯？我发现有些人非常自如，谁知道呢？也许他们也不自如，但有些人就觉得自己很愚蠢。比如，我的父亲就是那样。你看到的样子就是他自己，我觉得这让他在那个领域中非常有影响力，因为他完全做自己而不感到不自在。我却不是，我非常在意自己的表现。这对我来说既特别又有点挑战。我觉得有些人天生就是表演者。比如猫王，在舞台上，他们焕发活力。在那里他们真正快乐。我见过一些人，他们就像伟大的摇滚明星，在舞台上才有归属感。
It's not just the thing they do and they, they're certain aspects, they all certain aspects, they don't know. This is where, this is where they're alive. This is where they, they've always dreamed of being. This is where they want to be forever. Michael Jackson was like that. Michael Jackson. Some pictures of you hanging out like Jackson. That was cool. He came once to a performance. I wanted to be one moment in time. I wanted professional ballerina. Okay. And I was, you know, working really hard. I was going to the School of American Ballet. I was dancing at the Lincoln Center in the Nutcracker. I was super serious, you know, nine, 10-year-old. And, and my parents came to a Christmas performance of the Nutcracker and my father brought Michael Jackson with him. And everyone was so excited that all the dancers, they wore one glove. But I remember he was so shy.
这不仅仅是他们做的那些事，他们对某些方面都很有把握，但也有一些方面，他们并不完全明白。就是在这些不确定中，他们才真正活着。这就是他们梦想中的地方，他们希望永远待在这里。迈克尔·杰克逊就是这样的人。想象一下和他一起玩的画面，那很酷。有一次，他来看我的表演。我希望能在某个时刻成为职业芭蕾舞演员。为了这个目标，我努力学习，在美国芭蕾舞学校上课，并在林肯中心参演《胡桃夹子》。那时，我才九、十岁，非常投入、非常认真。我父母来观看圣诞节的《胡桃夹子》表演，我的父亲还带来了迈克尔·杰克逊。所有的舞者都很兴奋，甚至戴上了一只手套来表达敬意。但我记得，他非常害羞。
He was so quiet. And when you'd see him like in a smaller group, settings. And then you'd watch him walk on to stage. And it was like a completely different person. Like the vitality that came into him. And you say that's like someone who was born to do what he did. And, and I think there are a lot of performers like that. And I, I just in general love to see people that have founds the thing that makes them come alive. Yeah. Like I, as I mentioned, went to the jungle recently with Paul Rosley. And he's a guy who just belongs in the jungle. Yeah. Like that's the guy where like when I, I got it just to go with him from the city to the jungle. And you just see this person change of the happiness. The joy he has when he first is able to jump in the water the Amazon river and to feel like he's home with the crocodiles and all that.
他平时非常安静，尤其是在小团体里。而当你看他走上舞台时，就像变了一个人，迸发出无比的活力。你会觉得他天生就该做这行。我认为有很多表演者都是这样的，我也喜欢看到那些找到了让自己充满活力的事物的人。比如，我前不久和保罗·罗斯利一起去了丛林。保罗就是那种属于丛林的人。当我和他从城市到丛林的时候，看到他从内到外的变化，感受到他无比的快乐。当他第一次跳入亚马逊河中时，他的喜悦是显而易见的，他仿佛在鳄鱼的陪伴下回到了家。
And with his, with his calling friends and probably dances around in the trees with the monkeys. So he, like he, this is, this is where he belongs. And I love seeing that. You felt that. I mean, I watched the interview you did with him. And and you felt that like you, his passion and enthusiasm, like it radiated and capped. I mean, I love animals like I love all animals. Never loved snakes so much. And he almost made me, now I appreciate the beauty of them much more than I did prior to listening to him speak about them. But it's an infectious thing. He actually, we're talking about skyscrapers before. I loved he called trees skyscrapers of life. And I thought that was so great.
他和他的朋友一起呼唤，可能和猴子在树间跳舞。所以他属于这个地方。我喜欢看到这一点。你能感受到，我看了你和他的采访。你能感受到他的激情和热情，它真的很有感染力。我喜欢动物，我喜欢所有的动物。之前我从来没有这么喜欢过蛇，但是听他谈论蛇后，我现在更能欣赏它们的美丽了。这种感染力真的很强。我们之前谈到摩天大楼时，他把树称为“生命的摩天大楼”，我觉得这个说法非常棒。
Yeah. And they are. They're so big. I mean, just like skyscrapers or large buildings, they also represent a history, especially in Europe. I like to think, look at all these ancient buildings. You like to think of all the people throughout history that have looked at them, have admired them, have been inspired by them. You know, they're the great leaders of history. And Francis, like Napoleon, just the history that's contained within a building, you almost feel the energy of that history. You can, feel the stories emanate from the buildings.
是的，没错。这些建筑真的很巨大。就像摩天大楼或大建筑物一样，它们在欧洲尤其代表着一段历史。我喜欢想象这些古老建筑的样子。你会想到历史上有多少人曾经注视过它们，赞美过它们，被它们所激励。这些建筑就像历史上的伟大领袖们，比如拿破仑，建筑物中蕴藏着丰富的历史。当你站在这些建筑前，几乎可以感受到那段历史的能量，仿佛能够听到从建筑中传出的故事。
And that same way, when you look at giant trees that have been there for decades, for centuries, in some cases, you feel the history, the stories emanate. I got just to climb some of them. So you feel like there's a visceral feeling of the power of the trees. It's cool. Yeah. That's an experience I'd love to have. Be that disconnected. Yeah. Being in the jungle, among the trees, among the animals, you remember the year forever apart in nature. You're you're fundamental our nature that this isn't a earth is a living organism and you're a part of that organism. And that's humbling, it's beautiful.
当你看到那些已经存在几十年，甚至几个世纪的巨树时，你会感受到历史和故事的流淌。我曾有机会攀爬其中的一些。于是，你会感受到一种树木强大生命力的震撼。那真的很酷。我很想体验那种与世隔绝的感觉。在森林中，与树木和动物为伴，你会永远记得与大自然融为一体的那一刻。我们本质上是自然的一部分，地球是一个活生生的有机体，而你也是其中的一员。这让人感到谦卑，也很美好。
And you get to experience that in a real, real way. It sounds simple to say, but when you actually experience it, it stays with you for a long time, especially if you're out there alone. I got I got a chance to spend time in the jungle solo, just by myself. And you you sit in the fear of that, in the simplicity of that, all of it, and just no sounds of humans anywhere. You're just sitting there and listening to all the monkeys in the birds trying to have sex with each other all around you. Just screaming.
你可以以一种非常真实的方式体验到这一点。虽然说起来简单，但当你真正经历时，这种感觉会在你心中停留很久，特别是当你独自一人时。我曾有机会独自呆在丛林中，只是一个人。在那里，你感受到那种恐惧和简单，没有人类的声音。你只是坐在那里，听着周围猴子和鸟儿的叫声，它们都在试图交配。一切都是这样真实而直接。
And there's like romance. I mean, I'm romanticized there's like birds that are monogamous for life. Like mucaws, you could see like two of them flying. They're also by the way, screaming each other. I always wonder like are they arguing or is this their love length? That's very fun. You just have these like two birds that you know have been together for a long time. And they're just screaming at each other and they're really funny. Because there aren't that many animal species that are monogamous and you highlighted one example.
这段话大意是关于鸟类中的浪漫现象。作者提到一些鸟类，比如金刚鹦鹉，是终生一夫一妻制的。你可能会看到一对金刚鹦鹉一起飞行，并大声叫喊。作者很好奇，它们是在争吵还是在表达爱的语言。这种现象很有趣，因为自然界中没有多少动物是这样的一夫一妻制，而金刚鹦鹉就是一个例子。
But they literally sound like they're just they're bickering. But maybe to them is beautiful. You know, I don't want to judge what they do sound very loud and very obnoxious. But I'm it's all that it's just I don't know. I think it's so humbling to like feel so small too. Like I feel like when we get busy and when we're running around it's easy to feel we're so in our head and we feel sort of so consequential like in the context of even our own lives. And then you find yourself in a situation like that.
但他们听起来真的就像是在争吵一样。不过，也许对他们来说那是一种美。你知道的，我不想去评判，只是他们的声音确实很大，很刺耳。但我就是觉得，我也不太清楚，我觉得感受到自己的渺小是一件很谦卑的事。就像我们平常很忙碌，到处奔波时，很容易觉得自己脑中充满了想法，觉得自己非常重要，至少是在自己的生活中。但有时你置身于那样的一种境地时，就会产生这样的感受。
And it's I think you feel so much more connected knowing how miniscule you are in the broader sense. And I feel that way when I'm on the ocean on a surfboard. You know, you just it's it's really humbling to be so small and it's that vast sea. And it feels um It feels really beautiful. You know, with no noise, no chatter, no distractions. Just um just being in the moment. And it sounds like you experienced that in a very, very real way in in the Amazon.
我觉得，当你意识到自己在更广阔的世界中是多么渺小时，你会感到更加与世界相连。我在海上冲浪的时候就有这种感觉。你知道，面对无垠的大海，意识到自己的渺小，让人感到非常谦卑。而这种感觉真的很美好，没有噪音，没有闲言碎语，没有干扰，只有活在当下。这听起来像是你在亚马逊有过的非常真实的体验。
Yeah, the power of the waves is cool. I love swimming out into the ocean and feeling the power of the ocean. Yeah. And you see how you just like the speck and you can't fight it, right? You just have to sort of be in it. And I think in surfing one of the things I love about it is feel like a lot of water sports are like manipulating the environment, you know, and there's something that can be a little like violent about it. Like you look at wind surfing and um, whereas with surfing, you're like in harmony with it.
是的，海浪的力量真的很酷。我喜欢游到海里，感受大海的力量。你会发现自己就像大海中的一个小点，无法与之抗争，只能融入其中。而且我觉得冲浪特别吸引我的一点是，很多水上运动可能更像是在操控环境，这样可能会有些激烈。比如说风帆冲浪，而冲浪则更像是在和大自然的和谐共舞。
So you're not fighting it. You're you're flowing with it and you still have like the agency of choosing which waves you're going to surf and um, you sit there and you you read the ocean and and and you learn to understand it. But you can't control it. What's it like to like like fall in your face when you're trying to surf? Like what? I haven't surfed before. It just feels like I always see videos of when everything goes great. I just wonder when it doesn't.
所以你并不是在和它对抗，而是在顺应它，同时你仍然有选择要乘哪一波浪的主动权。你坐在那里，观察海洋，学习去理解它，但你无法控制它。当你试图冲浪却摔倒时是什么感觉？比如说，我以前没有冲过浪。我总是看到一切顺利的视频，但我想知道如果不顺利会怎样。
Those are the ones people post. No. Um, well, I actually had the unique experience of one of my first time surfing. I only learned a couple of years ago. So I'm not good. I just love it. I love everything about it. I love the physicality. I love being in the ocean. I love the everything about it. The hardest thing with surfing is paddling out because when you're like committing you catch a wave, obviously, sometimes like, you know, you flip over your board and that doesn't feel great.
那些就是人们发布的内容。不，嗯，其实我有一次独特的冲浪经历，这在我学会冲浪不久后发生的。我是几年前才开始学的，所以我现在技术还不太好。不过我真的很喜欢冲浪，喜欢它的一切。我喜欢其中的运动感，喜欢置身于大海中。冲浪中最难的就是划水出去，因为当你决定去追一个浪时，有时候你会从冲浪板上翻下来，那感觉并不太好。
But when you're in sort of the line of impact and you've maybe surfed a good wave in and now you're going out for another set and you get sort of stuck in that impact line, there's like nothing you can do. You just sort of sit there and you try to dive underneath it and it will pound you and pound you. So I've been stuck there while you know, four or five, six waves just like crash on top of your head and the worst thing you can do is get reactive and you know, um, and scared and and try and fight against it. You kind of just have to flow with it until inevitably there's a break and then paddle like hell back out to the line or to the beach, whatever, you know, whatever you're feeling. But it's that's to me, that's the hardest part, um, the paddling out.
但是当你处于冲击线的时候，也许你刚刚冲了一次不错的浪，现在准备去迎接下一组浪，却被困在了冲击线上，这时你几乎无能为力。你只能坐在那里，试着往下潜，但浪会一遍又一遍地拍打你。我曾经被困在那里，四五个甚至六个浪一个接一个拍在你头上，这时候最糟糕的事情就是变得紧张害怕，然后试图反抗。你只能顺应着它，直到必然会有一个空档，然后拼命划回浪线或者沙滩，看你想去哪里。对我来说，这就是最困难的部分，就是划出去的过程。
How did life change when your father decided to run for president? Wow, everything changed. You know, almost almost overnight. We learned that he was planning to announce his candidacy two weeks before he actually did. And nothing about our lives had been constructed with politics in mind, you know, a most often when people are exposed to politics at that level, that sort of national level, there's first like city council run and then maybe a state level run and and maybe, maybe, you know, Congress senator ultimately the presidency. So it was unheard of for him never to have run a campaign and then run for president and and win.
当你父亲决定竞选总统时，你的生活发生了怎样的变化？哇，一切都变了。几乎是突然之间。我们是在他实际宣布参选的两周前才知道他的计划。而且我们的生活从来没有考虑过与政治有关的东西。通常人们接触这种国家级别的政治，往往先是参加市议会的竞选，然后是州级竞选，也许还会竞选国会议员或参议员，最终才是总统。对他来说，从未竞选过任何职位就直接竞选总统并且还有可能获胜，这是闻所未闻的。
So it was, um, it was an extraordinary experience. There was so much intensity and so much scrutiny and and and so much noise. So that took for sure like a moment acclimated to not sure I ever fully acclimated, but it it definitely was, um, it was a super unusual experience. But I think then the the process that unfolded over over the next couple of years was also like the most extraordinary growth experience of my life. You know, suddenly I was going into communities that I probably never would have been to and I was talking with people who in 30 seconds would reveal to me their deepest insecurity, their gravest fear, their wildest ambitions, all of it with the hope that in telling me that story, it would get back to a potential future president of the United States and have impacts for their family, for their community.
所以，嗯，那是一段非凡的经历。充满了强烈的情感、密切的关注和各种喧嚣噪音。这确实让我花了一些时间去适应，不确定自己是否完全适应了，但毫无疑问，这是一次非常特殊的经历。不过，我认为接下来几年里展开的过程也是我人生中最非凡的成长经历。你知道吗，突然间我走进了那些我可能从未去过的社区，与那些会在30秒内向我倾诉他们最深的不安、最大的恐惧和最狂野的梦想的人交谈。所有这些，他们都希望通过向我讲述他们的故事，可以让未来有可能成为美国总统的人听到，从而对他们的家庭和社区产生影响。
So the level of candor and vulnerability people have with you is on like anything I've ever experienced. And I had done the apprentice before people may know, um, who I was in some of these situations that I was going into, but they wouldn't have shared with me these things that you got the impression that oftentimes our own spouses wouldn't know and they wouldn't do so within 30 seconds. So you learn so much about what motivates people, what drives people, what their concerns are, and you grow so much as a result of it.
人们在与你交流时表现出的坦诚和脆弱程度是我前所未见的。我之前参加过《学徒》节目，可能有人知道我是谁，但即便如此，他们也不会与我分享这些事情。而这些事情往往是他们的配偶都不知道的，而且这分享是在短短30秒内发生的。所以，通过这种交流，你可以了解很多关于人们的动机、驱动力和他们的顾虑，从而获得很大的成长。
So when you're in the White House people, unlike in any other position, people have a sense that all the troubles are going through, maybe you can help. Yeah. So they put it all out there. And they do so in such a raw, vulnerable and real way. It's, it's shocking and eye opening and, um, and super motivating. I remember once I was in New Hampshire and I'm early on right after my father had had announced his candidacy and a man walks up to me in, in the greeting line. And within around five seconds he had started to tell me a story about how his daughter had died of an overdose.
当你在白宫工作时，与其他职位不同，人们会觉得他们所经历的所有困难，你可能可以提供帮助。他们会完全敞开心扉，以一种非常直接、脆弱和真实的方式表达出来。这让人感到震惊和启发，并且非常激励人心。我记得有一次我在新罕布什尔州，就在我父亲宣布参选后不久，在迎宾队列里有一个男人走到我面前。他在大约五秒钟内就开始告诉我他的女儿因为药物过量去世的故事。
Um, and how he was worried his son was also addicted to opioids, his daughter's friends, his son's friends and, and it's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking and it's, it's something that I would experience every day in talking with people. And those stories just stay with you always. You know, I, I, uh, took a, uh, uh, long road trip around the United States in my 20s. I'm kind of thinking of doing it again. Just, just for like a couple of months for that exact purpose. And you can get these stories when you go to like a bar in the middle of nowhere and just sit and talk to people and they start sharing.
嗯，他很担心他的儿子也对阿片类药物上瘾，还有他女儿的朋友、儿子的朋友。这让人心碎。这让我在日常的谈话中无时无刻不体会到这些故事的沉重。这些故事总会留在你的记忆中。我曾经在二十多岁的时候绕着美国进行了一次长途旅行。我有点想再这样做一次，可能就几个月。正是为了找寻这样的故事。当你去到一个偏僻地方的酒吧，坐下来和人们交谈，他们就会开始分享他们的故事。
And it's, it reminds you of like how beautiful the country is. It reminds you several things. One that people, uh, it shows you that there's a lot of different accents. That's for one. But aside from that, the people are struggling with all the same stuff. Yeah. And, um, at least at that time, I wonder what it is now, but at that time, I don't remember on the surface, there's like political divisions, there's, uh, Republicans, the Democrats and so on. But like underneath it, there are people who are all the same, the concerns are all the same. There's not that much of a division.
这让你想起这个国家是多么美丽，同时也提醒你一些事情。首先，你会发现有很多不同的口音。不过，除此之外，人们都在为相同的问题而努力。至少在那个时候，我不知道现在怎么样，但当时我不记得表面上有政治分歧，比如共和党人和民主党人等等。但在表面之下，人们其实是一样的，关心的问题也是一样的，分歧并没有那么大。
Right now, the, the surface division has been amplified even more, maybe because of social media. I don't know why. Uh, so I would love to see what the country is like now, but I suspect probably it's still not as divided as it appears to be on the surface. What the media shows, what the social media shows. Um, but what did you experience in terms of the, the division? Well, I think a couple of reactions to what you just said, I think the first is your, when you connect with people like that, you are so, um, inspired by their courage, you know, in the face of adversity and, um, their resilience and it's like a truly remarkable experience for me. The campaign lifted me out of a bubble. I didn't even know I was in. You know, I grew up on the upper east side of New York and I felt like I was well traveled and well educated and I believe that I believed at the time that I'd been exposed to divergent viewpoints and I realized during the campaign how limited my exposure had been relative to what it was becoming.
目前，社会的表面分歧似乎由于社交媒体更加显著。我不确定具体原因是什么。我想知道现在国家的实际状况如何，但我怀疑实际上可能没有媒体和社交媒体所展示的那么分裂。那么，你在这方面有什么体验呢？我对你刚刚所说的有几点反应。首先，当你与这样的人交流时，他们在逆境中的勇气和韧性会让你深受启发，这对我来说是一次非常值得敬佩的经历。这次活动把我从一个我甚至不知道自己身处其中的泡沫中拉了出来。我在纽约上东区长大，自以为见多识广，受过良好教育，也认为自己接触过不同的观点。然而在这次活动中，我意识到之前的接触相比现在要有限得多。
So there was a lot of, there was a lot of growth in that as well. But I do think, you know, you think about the vitriol on politics and, um, you know, whether it's worse than it's been in the past or not, I think that's up for debate. I think, you know, there have been, there have been duels. There's been screaming and there's, you know, politics has always been a blood sport and it's always been incredibly vicious. I think in the toxic swirl of social media, it's more amplified and there are, there's more sort of democratization around participating in it, perhaps. And it seems like the voices are louder, but it's always been, it feels like it's always been that. But I don't believe most people are like that and, and, you know, you meet people along the way and they're not leading with what their politics are, you know, they're telling you about their hopes for themselves and their communities.
所以在这方面也有很大的成长。但我认为，当你思考政治中的恶意言论时，不论它是否比过去更严重，我觉得这值得辩论。你知道，以前也有过决斗，有过尖叫，政治一直是激烈的竞争，一直非常残酷。我认为在社交媒体的有害环境中，这种情况被放大了，并且可能让更多人参与其中，显得声音更大，但实际上这种情况似乎一直存在。不过，我不认为大多数人都是这样的，当你在生活中遇到别人时，他们并不会先告诉你他们的政治立场，而是谈论自己和社区的愿望。
And, uh, and it makes you feel that we are a whole lot less divided than, um, you know, the media and, uh, others would have us believe. Although I have to say, having duels that sounds pretty cool. Maybe I just romanticize westerns, but anyway, all right, my misclonings with movies. Okay. But it's true. Like you read some of the stuff, like in terms of what politics used to be in the history of the United States, those, those folks went pretty rough, like way rougher actually, but they didn't have social media. So they had to go like real hard. And the media was rough too. So all like the fake news, all of that. That's not recent. It's been nonstop. You know, I look at the surface division, the surface bickering, and that might be like just a feature of democracy. That's, it's not a bug of democracy. It's a feature where in the constant conflict, and it's the way we result, we tried to figure out the right way forward.
这段话翻译成中文是：
嗯，这让你觉得我们没有媒体和其他人让我们相信的那么分裂。不过，我得说，决斗听起来还是蛮酷的。也许我只是把西部片浪漫化了，但不管怎样，好吧，我对电影有误解。不过这是真的。你读到一些关于美国政治历史的内容时，会发现那些人其实很激烈，比现在激烈得多，但他们没有社交媒体，所以只能来硬的。而且媒体也很严厉。所以所有像假新闻这样的东西，并不是最近才有的，它一直存在。我看到一些表面的分裂和争吵，这可能仅仅是民主的一种特征，并不是民主的缺陷。这就是一种持续的冲突，也是我们试图找到正确前进方向的方式。
So in the moment, it feels like people are just tearing each other apart, but really we're trying to find the way where like in the long arc of history, it will look like progress. But in the short term, it just sounds like people making stories up about each other and calling each other names and all this kind of stuff. But in the, there's a purpose to it. I mean, that's what freedom looks like, I guess, is what I'm trying to say in as better than the alternative. I think that the vast majority of people aren't participating in it. Sure. Yes. That's true. I think there's the minority of people that are doing most of the yelling and screaming. And the majority of Americans just want to send their kid to a great school and want their communities to thrive and want to be able to realize their dreams and aspirations. So I saw a lot more of that than it would feel obvious if you looked at like a Twitter feed.
在当下，似乎人们彼此之间在互相攻击，但实际上我们是在寻找一种方式，在历史的长河中，这将被看作是进步。然而，从短期来看，这看起来就像人们在编故事、互相辱骂等。这些行为都有其目的。我想说的是，这就是自由的样子，至少比其他选择要好。我认为绝大多数人并没有参与这些，确实如此。大多数的争吵和喊叫都是由少数人发起的。而绝大多数美国人只希望他们的孩子能够上好学校，希望他们的社区能够繁荣发展，并希望能够实现自己的梦想和愿望。我看到这种现象远多于在社交媒体上看到的争吵。
What went into your decision to join the White House as an advisor? You know, the campaign I never, I never thought about joining. It was kind of like get to the end of it. And when it started, I was like everything in my life was almost firing on all cylinders. I two young kids at home during the course of the campaign. I ended up, I was pregnant with my third. So this young family, my businesses, real estate and fashion and working alongside my brothers, running the Trump Hotel collection. My life was full and busy. And so there was a big part of me that was just wanted to get through, just get through it without really thinking forward to what the implications were for me. But when my father won, he asked Jared and I to join him. And in asking that question, you know, keep in mind, he was a total outsider. So there was no bench of people as he would have today.
是什么促使你决定加入白宫担任顾问的？你知道，在竞选期间，我从没想过要加入。就像是顺其自然，直到竞选结束时，我的生活几乎一切顺利。我有两个年幼的孩子，竞选期间我还怀上了第三个孩子。可以说，我的家庭、我的生意——包括房地产和时尚——以及与兄弟们一起管理特朗普酒店集团，让我的生活充实而忙碌。所以，当时我的大部分想法只是想顺利度过这一切，而没有考虑对我将有什么影响。但是，当我父亲赢得选举后，他邀请我和贾里德加入。提出这个请求时，要记住，他完全是个业外人士，那时他并没有今天这样的幕僚团队。
He had never spent the night in Washington, to see you before staying in the White House. And so when he asked us to join him, he trusted us. He trusted in our ability to execute. And there wasn't a part of me that could imagine the 70 or 80 year old version of myself looking back and having been okay with having said no. And going back to my life as I knew it before. I mean, in retrospect, I realized there is no life as you know before. But just the idea of not saying yes, wherever that would lead me. And so I dove in.
他以前从未在华盛顿过夜，更不用说在白宫住过。所以当他邀请我们加入他的时候，他是信任我们的。他信任我们执行任务的能力。我无法想象自己在七八十岁时回顾过去，会觉得拒绝邀请是件好事，然后再回到我以前熟悉的生活。我是说，回头看，我意识到并不存在所谓的“以前的生活”。但光是想到如果不说“是”，无论这会把我带向何处，就让我义无反顾地投入其中。
I was also during the course of the campaign, I was just much more sensitive to the problems and experiences of Americans. I gave you an example before of the father and new Hampshire. But even just in my consumption of information, I had a business that was predominantly young women, many of which were thinking about having a kid had just had a child, were planning on that life event. And I knew what they needed to be able to show up every day. And realize the stream for themselves. And the support structures they would need to have in place.
在竞选过程中，我对美国人的问题和经历变得更加敏感。我之前提到过一个新罕布什尔州的父亲的例子。甚至在我获取信息的过程中，我拥有一家公司，员工主要是年轻女性，其中很多人正在考虑生孩子或者刚刚有了孩子，正计划迎接这个人生阶段。我知道她们每天需要什么，以便实现自己的梦想，并清楚她们需要什么样的支持体系。
And I remember reading this article at the time in one of the major newspapers of a woman she had had a very solid job working at one of the blue chip accounting firms. And the recession came. She lost her job around the same time as her partner left her. And over a matter of months, she lost her home. So she wound up with her two young kids after bouncing around between neighbors living in their car. She gets a call back from one of the many interviews she had done for a second interview where she was all but guaranteed the job should that go well.
我记得那时在一家主要报纸上读到一篇文章，讲的是一位女士的故事。她原本在一家蓝筹会计公司有一份非常稳定的工作，但经济衰退来了。她不仅在那段时间失去了工作，伴侣也离开了她。几个月的时间里，她还失去了自己的房子。于是，她和两个年幼的孩子在邻居家之间四处辗转，最后不得不住在车里。后来，她接到了很多面试中的一个回电，邀请她参加第二次面试。如果表现得好，几乎可以确保得到那份工作。
And she had arranged childcare for her two young children with a neighbor in her old apartment block. And the morning of the interview, she shows up and the neighbor doesn't answer the doorbell. And stanza five, 10 minutes doesn't answer. So she has a choice. Does she go to the interview with her children or does she try to cancel? She gets in her car drives to the interview, leaves her two children in the back seat of the car with the window cracked, goes into the interview and gets pulled out of the interview by police because somebody had called the cops after seeing her children in the back seat of the car.
她为她的两个年幼孩子安排了托儿服务，由她以前公寓楼的邻居照看。然而，在面试当天早上，当她去找那位邻居时，邻居却没有回应门铃。十分钟过去了，邻居仍然没有回应。于是她面临选择：是带着孩子一起去面试，还是尝试取消面试？最后她选择开车去面试，把两个孩子留在车后座，车窗开了一条缝。她进入面试地点，却被警察叫了出来，因为有人看到她的孩子在车后座，于是报警。
She gets thrown in jail. Her kids get taken from her and she spends years fighting to regain custody. And I think about that's an extreme example. But I think about something like that. And I say if I was the mother and we were homeless, like what I've gone to that interview. And I probably would have. And that is not like an acceptable situation. You know, so you hear stories like that and then you get asked, well, you come with me. And it's really hard to say no.
她被关进监狱，孩子们被带走，她花了多年时间争取夺回监护权。这是一个极端的例子。每当我想到类似的情况，我就想，如果我是那个母亲，我们无家可归，我会去参加面试吗？我可能会去。这种情况是不合理的。你知道，当你听到这样的故事后，有人问你愿不愿意跟他们一起走时，很难说不。
I spent four years in Washington. I feel like I left it all in the field. I feel really good about it. And I feel really privileged to have been able to do what I did. A chance to help to help many people saying no means you're kind of turning away from those people. You felt like that to me. Yeah. Yeah. But then it's the turmoil of politics that you're getting into. It really is a leap into the abyss.
我在华盛顿待了四年。我觉得我已经尽力而为，对此感到非常满意。我也觉得自己很幸运，能够做我所做的事情。有机会去帮助很多人，而拒绝则意味着在某种程度上是在背离这些人。对我来说，就是这种感觉。对，是这样。但与此同时，投身政治的动荡真的像是一场跳入深渊的冒险。
What was it like trying to get stuff done in Washington? In this place where politics is a game, it feels that way maybe from an outsider perspective. And you go in there trying, given some of those stories trying to help people. What's it like to get anything done? It's an incredible cognitive lift. That's a nice way to put it.
在华盛顿试图完成任务是什么感觉？在这个地方，政治就像一场游戏，从外人的角度来看可能确实如此。你进入那里，试图帮助别人，尤其在面对这些故事时，想要完成任何事情是什么感觉？真的是一种巨大的智力挑战。这么说算是委婉了。
Yeah. To get things done, you know, there are a lot of people who would prefer to cling to the problem. And they're talking points about how they're going to solve it, rather than sort of roll up their sleeves and do the work it takes to build coalitions of support and find people who are willing to compromise and move the ball. And so it's extremely difficult. And, you know, Jared and I talk about all the time. It probably should be because these are highly consequential policies that impact people's lives at scale. It shouldn't be so easy to do them. And they are doable. But it's challenging.
好的。要完成任务，你知道，有很多人更倾向于纠结于问题本身，以及他们如何解决这些问题的说辞，而不是实际动手去做需要的工作，比如建立支持的联盟，找到愿意妥协并推动事情进展的人。因此，这是非常困难的。你知道，Jared和我经常讨论这点。这可能本应如此，因为这些政策影响着大量人们的生活，不应该如此轻松地实现它们。这些事情是可以做到的，但确实具有挑战性。
You know, one of the first experiences I had where it really was just a full grind effort was with tax cuts and the work I did to get the child tax credit doubled as part of it. And it just meant meeting after meeting after meeting after meeting with lawmakers, convincing them of why this is good policy. Going into their districts, campaigning in their districts, helping them convince their constituents of why it's important, of why childcare support is important, of why paid family leave is important, of different policies that impact working American families. So it's hard, but it's really rewarding.
你知道，我最初的一次真正全力以赴的经历是关于减税的工作，其中包括我努力将儿童税收抵免额度翻倍。为此，我需要不断地与立法者进行会晤，一个接一个地说服他们为什么这是一项好的政策。我还深入到他们的选区进行宣传，帮助他们说服选民了解为什么这很重要，为什么育儿支持重要，为什么带薪家庭假期重要，以及这些不同的政策如何影响美国工薪家庭。虽然过程很艰难，但却非常有成就感。
And then to get it done, I mean, just the child tax credit alone, 40 million American families got an average of $2,200 each year as a result of the doubling of the child tax credits, that's one component of tax cuts. When I was like researching this stuff, you just get to think the scale of things, the scale of impact is 40 million families. Each one of those is a story, is a story of struggle of trying to give a large part of your life to a job while still being able to give love and support and care to a family and to kids and to manage all of that.
为了完成这一目标，仅仅是儿童税收抵免一项，就使得4000万美国家庭平均每年获得了2200美元的补贴，这是税收减免的一部分。当我在研究这些内容时，你会意识到事情的规模有多大，影响的规模是4000万个家庭。每一个家庭都有自己的故事，都是关于在努力工作的同时，仍然能够给予家庭、孩子爱与支持的奋斗故事，同时也要处理工作与家庭生活的平衡。
Each one of those is a little puzzle that they have to solve and it's the life and death puzzle. You can lose your home, your security, you can lose your job, you can scooch stuff up with parenting. So you can mess all that up and you're trying to hold it together and government policies can help make that easier or can in some cases make that possible. And you get to do that of scale not of like five or 10 families, but like 40 million families. And that's just one thing.
每一个这样的决定都是一个小谜题，他们必须去解决，并且这是生死攸关的谜题。你可能会失去家园、失去安全感、失去工作，或是在育儿方面搞砸。因此，如果搞砸了这些事情，你就得努力让生活稳定下来。而政府政策可以帮助你更容易地达到这个目标，或者在某些情况下使其成为可能。而且，这种帮助不是针对五个或十个家庭，而是针对四千万个家庭。这还只是其中一方面。
Yeah, the people who shared with me their experience and during the campaign, it was what they hope to see happen. Once you were in there, it was what they were seeing, what they were experiencing, the result of the policies. And that was the fuel. You know, on the hardest days, like that was the fuel. Child tax credit. I remember visiting with a woman Brittany Houseman. She came to the White House. She had two small children. She was pregnant with her third. Her husband was killed in a car accident. She was in school at the time.
是的，那些与我分享他们经历的人，以及在竞选期间，他们希望看到的事情。一旦你进入这个位置，他们看到的、体验到的都是政策的结果。这就是动力。你知道，在最艰难的日子里，那就是动力。比如儿童税收抵免。我记得拜访过一位名叫布列塔尼·豪斯曼的女士。她来到白宫。当时她有两个年幼的孩子，还怀着第三个孩子。她的丈夫在一场车祸中去世了，而她那时还在上学。
Her dream was to become a criminal justice advocate. That was no longer on the table for her after he passed away. And she became the sole learner and provider for her family. And she couldn't afford childcare. She couldn't afford to stay in school. So she ended up creating a childcare center in her home. And her center was so successful because in part of different policies we worked on, including the childcare block grants that went to the state. She ended up opening additional centers. I visited her, one of them in Colorado.
她的梦想是成为一名刑事司法倡导者。但在他去世后，这个梦想再也无法实现了。她成了家里唯一的学习者和收入来源。她负担不起托儿服务，也无法继续上学。所以她最终在家里创办了一个托儿中心。由于我们一起努力推动的一些政策，包括州级托儿津贴，她的托儿中心非常成功。最终，她开设了更多的托儿中心。我去拜访了她，其中一个在科罗拉多州。
Now she has like a huge focus on helping teenage moms who don't have the resources to afford quality childcare for their kids come into her centers and programs. And you know, it's stories like that of the hardships people face, but also what they do with opportunity when they're given it. That really like powers you through tough moments when you're in Washington. Well, what can you say about the process of like bringing that to life? So the child tax credits. So doubling them from a thousand to a thousand per child.
现在，她非常专注于帮助那些没有资源负担高质量儿童护理的年轻妈妈们，她邀请她们来到她的中心和项目中。你知道，这样的故事展现了人们所面临的困难，同时也展示了当他们获得机会时能够做出的改变。当你身处华盛顿这些艰难时刻时，这种故事真的能够给你力量。那么，你能谈谈如何将这一切变为现实的过程吗？比如，儿童税收抵免的政策——将每个孩子的抵免额从一千美元增加到两千美元。
Well, like, what are the challenges of that getting people to compromise? I'm sure there's a lot of politicians playing games with that because maybe it's a Republican that came up with an idea or a Democrat that came up with an idea and so they don't want to give credit to the idea. And that's probably all kinds of games happening where they, when the game is happening, you probably forget about the families. Each politician thinks about how they can benefit themselves. You forget like the serving part of the role you're supposed to be in.
好吧，那么，让人们妥协有什么挑战呢？肯定会有很多政客在这方面搞小动作，因为可能是共和党提出了一个想法，也可能是民主党提出了一个想法，所以他们不愿意给对方的想法以承认。可能有各种各样的游戏在进行，而当这些游戏在进行时，你可能会忘记那些家庭。每位政客都在考虑如何让自己受益。你忘记了作为领导者，你应该履行的服务职责。
There were definitely people I met with in Washington who I felt that was true of. But you know, they all go back to their districts. And I assume that they all have similar experiences to what I had where people share their stories. So there'd be something really cynical about thinking they forget. But you know, some do. You help get people together. What's that take? Trying to get people to compromise, trying to get people to see the common humanity. Well, I think first and foremost, you have to be willing to talk with them.
我在华盛顿遇到了一些人，我觉得他们确实有这样的特点。但你知道，他们都会回到自己的地区。我想他们也都会像我一样，听到人们分享自己的故事。所以如果认为他们会忘记，那就太过愤世嫉俗了。不过，确实有人会忘记。你可以帮助大家聚到一起。那需要什么呢？努力让人们妥协，努力让人们看到共同的人性。我认为最重要的是，你必须愿意和他们沟通。
So, you know, one of the policies I advocate for was paid family leave. We left in nine million more Americans had it through a combination of securing it for our federal workforce. I had people in the White House who were pregnant who didn't have access to to paid leave. So we want to keep people attached to the workforce yet when they have an important life event like a child. We create an impossibility for that.
所以，你知道，我倡导的政策之一是带薪家庭假。这项政策使得九百万美国人通过我们的努力获得了福利，包括为联邦员工争取到带薪假。我在白宫工作时，有些同事怀孕了，但没有带薪假。我们希望在重要的人生事件，如生孩子时，人们仍能与职场保持联系。然而，这在现实中几乎是不可能的。
You know, some people don't even have access to to unpaid leave if they're part-time workers. And so that and and then we also put in place the first ever national tax credit for workers making under $72,000 a year where employers could then offer it to their workers. That was also part of tax cuts. So, you know, part of it is is really taking taking the arguments as to why this is good smart, well-designed policy to people.
你知道，有些兼职工人甚至无法享受到无薪休假。为此，我们首次制定了针对年收入低于72,000美元的工人的国家税收抵免政策，雇主可以据此为员工提供福利。这也是减税措施的一部分。所以，我们的一部分工作就是要让人们了解这项政策为什么是好、聪明且设计合理的。
And you know, it was one of my big surprises that on certain policy issues that I thought would have been well-socialized. The policies that existed were never shared across the aisle. So people just lived with them. Maybe in hopes that one day they would have the votes to get exactly what they want. But I was surprised by how little discussion there was. So, I think part of it is be willing to have those tough discussions with people who may not share your viewpoint and be an active listener when they point out flaws. And they have suggestions for for changes. Not believing that you have a monopoly on good ideas. And I think there has to be a lot of humility in in architecting these things.
你知道吗，我非常惊讶地发现，在某些政策问题上，我原以为会有很好的交流，但实际上这些政策从未被跨党派分享过。于是大家就这样将就着这些政策，也许是抱着有一天能有票数如愿以偿的希望。但我很惊讶地发现，这种讨论几乎没有。所以，我认为，需要愿意和持不同观点的人进行深入讨论，并在他们指出缺陷时积极聆听他们的建议，不要认为自己拥有所有的好主意。在制定这些政策时，必须怀有谦逊的态度。
And and a policy should benefit from that type of well-rounded input. Yeah, be able to see, like you said, well-designed policies. There's probably like the details are important too. Like there's just just like with architecture and you walk the rooms. There's probably really good designs of policies, like economic policy that helps families that delivers the maximum amount of money or resources to families that needed and is not a waste of money. So like that there's probably really nice designs there. Nice ideas that are bipartisan that has nothing to do with politics. It has to do with just great economic policy. It's great policies. And that requires listening.
一项政策应该受益于这种全面的意见输入。正如你所说，能够看到精心设计的政策，其中细节也非常重要。就像建筑一样，当你走进各个房间时会发现很好的设计。同样，也可能有优秀的经济政策设计，这些政策能够将最大程度的资金或资源提供给需要的家庭，同时又不会浪费。这些设计可能还有很好的想法，是跨党派的，与政治无关，仅仅是出色的经济政策。这些优秀的政策需要倾听和关注。
Quares trust too. Like I learned tax cuts was really interesting for me because I met with so many people across the political spectrum on advancing that policy. I really figured out who was willing to deviate from their talking points when the door was closed and who wasn't. And I take some courage to do that. Especially without surety that it would actually get done. Especially if they've campaigned on something that was slightly different. And not everyone has that courage. So through tax cuts I learned the people who did have that courage. And I went back to that well time and time again on policies that I thought was were important.
翻译为中文：Quares也值得信任。我对税收减免感到非常有趣，因为在推进该政策的过程中，我与许多来自不同政治背景的人会面。我真正了解了那些在私下会晤时愿意偏离他们标准立场的人，也了解了那些不愿意这样做的人。做到这一点需要一些勇气，尤其是在无法确定该政策能否真正实施的情况下。特别是如果他们竞选时的承诺与此略有不同时。不是每个人都有这样的勇气。因此，通过税收减免，我了解到了那些有勇气的人。在我认为重要的政策上，我一次又一次地依赖这些人。
You know some were bipartisan. The Great American Outdoors Act is something it's incredible policy that yeah it's amazing. It's one of the largest pieces of conservation legislation since the national park system was created. And you know over 300 million people visit our national parks. The vast majority of them being Americans every year. So this is something that is real and beneficial for people's lives getting rid of the different maintenance permanently funding them. But there are other issues like that that just weren't being prioritized. Modernizing Perkins CTE. You know in vocational education.
有些是获得两党支持的。其中一个令人难以置信的政策是《伟大的美国户外法案》。这项法案非常惊人，它是自国家公园系统创建以来最大的一项保护立法之一。每年有超过3亿人访问我们的国家公园，而且绝大多数是美国人。因此，这确实对改善人们的生活有实际作用，例如永久性地解决维修问题并提供资金支持。不过还有其他类似的问题没有得到优先关注，比如现代化的Perkins职业技术教育（CTE）体系。
And it's something I became super passionate about. And and help lead lead the charge on. I think in in America for a really long period of time we've really believed that education stops when you leave high school or college. And that is not true and that's a dangerous way to think. So how can we both galvanize the private sector to ensure that they continue to train workers for the jobs they know are coming. And how they train their existing workforce into the new jobs with robotics or machinery or new technologies that are coming down the pike. So galvanizing the private sector to join us in in in that effort.
翻译成中文：
这是我非常热衷的事情，并努力带头推动。我认为在美国，很长一段时间以来，我们一直认为教育在离开高中或大学后就停止了。这种观念是不对的，而且很危险。所以，我们怎么能动员私营部门，确保他们继续为已知即将到来的岗位培训员工。同时，还要培训现有的员工，使其适应机器人、机械或即将出现的新技术带来的新工作。我们需要动员私营部门加入我们的这一努力。
So whether it's the legislative side like the actual legislation of Perkins CTE which was focused on on vocational education or whether it's the ability to use the White House to galvanize the private sector. We got over 16 million commitments from the private sector to retrain or rescale workers into the jobs of tomorrow. Yeah there's so many aspects of education that you're helped on. Access to the STEM and computer science education. So the the CT thing you're mentioning modernizing career and technical education. That's millions, millions of people. The act provided nearly $1.3 billion annually to more than 13 million students to better align the employer needs and all that kind of stuff. Very large scale policies that help a lot of people. It's fascinating. Education often isn't like the bright shiny object everyone's running towards.
所以，无论是像 Perkins CTE 这样的立法，专注于职业教育，还是利用白宫的影响力来激励私营部门，我们都取得了重大进展。我们获得了来自私营部门的超过1600万的承诺，以重新培训或提升工人的技能，使他们能从事未来的工作。是的，教育的许多方面都得到了帮助，比如获取 STEM 和计算机科学教育的机会。因此，你提到的 CTE 是着眼于现代化职业和技术教育。这项法案每年提供近13亿美元资金，惠及超过1300万名学生，使其更好地满足雇主的需求等等。这些是大规模的政策，帮助了许多人。这实在是很吸引人。教育通常不像大家争相追逐的闪亮热点。
So one of the hard things in in politics when there's something that is good policy. Sometimes it has no momentum because it doesn't have a cheerleader. So where are areas of good policy that you can like literally just carry across the finish line because people tend to run towards what's the news of the day. Sort of to try to address whatever issues being talked about on the front pages of papers and there's so many issues that need to be addressed and you know education is one of them that's just under prioritized you know human trafficking.
在政治中，一个困难的地方是，即便某项政策非常好，有时也缺乏推动力，因为没有人为它加油助威。那么，哪些好的政策可以被推进到完成的阶段呢？因为人们往往趋向于追逐当天的新闻，试图解决那些在报纸头版上被谈论的问题。然而，还有许多需要解决的问题却被忽视了，比如教育是一个被低估的重要领域，还有人口贩卖问题。
That's an issue that I didn't go to the White House thinking I would work on but you hear a story of a survivor and you can't not want to eradicate one of the greatest evils that the mind can even imagine you know the trafficking of people the exploitation of children and I think for so many they assume that this is a problem that doesn't happen on our shores you know it's something that that you may experience at far flung destinations across the world but it's happening there and it's happening here as well and so through a coalition of people that on both sides of the aisle that I came to trust and to work well with we were able to get legislation which the president signed past nine pieces of legislation combating trafficking at home in abroad and digital exploitation of children.
这不是我去白宫时打算要处理的问题，但当你听到幸存者的故事时，无论如何都会想要消除这世上最大的邪恶之一：人口贩卖和儿童剥削。许多人以为这是在遥远的外国才会发生的问题，但事实上，它不仅发生在那里，也发生在我们身边。通过与两党中我信任并合作良好的伙伴组成的联盟，我们成功推动了总统签署通过的立法，共九项法律，旨在打击国内外的人口贩卖和儿童的数字剥削。
How much of a toll does that take seeing all the problems in the world it's such a large scale the men's save at all was that hard to walk around with that just knowing how much suffering there is in the world as you're trying to help all of it as you're trying to design government policies to help all of that it's also a very visceral recognition that there is suffering in the world how difficult is that to walk around with you feel it intensely you know we were just talking about human trafficking I mean you don't design these policies in the absence of the input of survivors themselves so you hear their stories remember a woman who is really influential in my thinking Andrea Hipwell who she was in college where she was lured out by a guy she thought was a good guy started dating him he gets her hooked on drugs convinces her to drop out of college and spends the next five years selling her she only got out when she was arrested and all too often that's happening too that the victims being targeted not the perpetrator so we did a lot with DOJ around changing that and but now she's helping other survivors get skills and job training and the therapeutic interventions they need but you speak with people like Andrea and so many others and I mean you can't not your your part gets seized by it and it's it's both it's motivating and it's hard it's really hard.
看到世界上如此多的困难和痛苦，这种责任感有多大？在走上街头的时候，知道世界上有那么多苦难，而你正在努力去帮助解决这些问题，同时设计政府政策来帮助所有人，这种感觉是非常直接的认知。这有多么困难？你会感受到它的强烈影响。比如我们刚才谈到的人口贩卖问题，我们在设计这些政策时，并不是在没有受害者的意见的情况下进行的。你会听到他们的故事。我记得一个对我影响很深的女人，安德里亚·希普韦尔，在她念大学的时候，被一个她认为是好人的男人引诱，开始和他约会，然后被引入毒品，并被说服退学，在接下来的五年中，她被迫卖身。她只有在被逮捕后才得以脱身。不幸的是，这种情况常常发生，受害者被针对，而不是肇事者。因此，我们和司法部合作，做了很多工作来改变这种情况。而现在，她在帮助其他幸存者获取技能和工作培训，以及他们需要的治疗干预。但当你和安德里亚以及其他许多人交谈时，你无法不被这种事情触动。这既是一种动力，也非常难熬。
I was just talking to a brain surgeon many of the surgery has to do he knows the chances are very low success and he says that that wears at his armor yeah it chips away is like only so many times can you do that and thank god he's doing it because I bet you're there are a lot of others that don't choose that particular field because of those low success rates but you could see the pain in his eyes like maintaining your humanity while doing all of it you could see the story though you could see the family that loves that person just you feel the immensity of that and you you you feel the heartbreak involved with mortality in that case and with suffering also in that case and generally all these in human trafficking but even helping families try to stay afloat trying to break out or escape poverty all that you get to see those stories of struggles not easy but the people that really feel the humanity of that feel the pain of that probably the right people to be politicians but it's probably also why you can't stay in there too long.
我刚刚在跟一位脑外科医生谈话，他说他们做的很多手术成功的几率很低，这让他内心感到沉重。他说这样的工作让他的心理防线一天天削弱，而他仍然坚持下去，因为他知道有很多人因为成功率低而不选择这个领域。你可以从他的眼中看到那种痛苦，能感受到他在努力保持人性。在这种情况下，你能看到背后家庭的故事和爱，感受到那种深深的痛苦，以及面对死亡和痛苦的无奈和心碎。无论是在对抗人口贩卖，还是帮助家庭摆脱贫困中，这样的痛苦和人性的挣扎总是存在。真正能够感受这些的人，可能才是适合做政治家的人，但也可能正因为如此，他们无法在那个职位上待得太久。
It's the only time in my life where you actually feel like there's always a conflict right between work and life and making sure you know as a woman I'd often get asked about you know how do you balance work and family and and I never I never liked that question because balance it's like a lucif right you're you're one fever away from like no balance you know like your child sick one day what do you do there goes balance or you know you have a huge project with a deadline there goes balance like I think a better way to frame it is am I living in accordance with my priorities maybe not every day but every week you know every month and reflecting on have you architected a life that aligns with your priorities so that more often than not you're where you need to be in that moment and service at that level was the one time where you really you feel incredibly conflicted about having any priorities other than serving.
这是我生命中唯一一次感到在工作和生活之间总是有冲突。作为女性，我常常被问到如何平衡工作和家庭。我一直不喜欢这个问题，因为"平衡"这个词就像是一个幻影，你可能因为一点变化就失去平衡。比如孩子生病了，你该怎么做？平衡就没了。或者你有一个需要按时完成的重要项目，平衡也就没了。我认为一个更好的说法是，我是否按照自己的优先事项来生活。也许不是每天如此，但每周、每个月回顾一下，你的生活是否符合你的优先事项，这样大多数时候你都能在需要的地方。当我服务于他人时，那是一段让我感到极度困扰的时光，因为服务的优先级可能让你身心投入，难以顾及其他。
It's finite you know in every business I've built you're building for duration you know and then you go into the White House and it is San Thorn Hourglass whether it's four years or eight years it's a finite period of time you have and most people don't last four years I think the average in the White House is 18 months it's exhausting but it's the only time when you're at home with your own children that you feel you think about all the people you've met and you feel guilty about any time that's spent not advancing those interests and to the best of your capacity and that's a hard that's a hard thing that's a really hard feeling as a parent and it's really challenging them to be to be present to always need to answer your phone you'll always need to be available it's um it's very difficult it's taxing but it's it's also the greatest privilege in the world.
在每个我创建的企业中，你都知道这是一个为持续性而建立的过程。然而，当你进入白宫时，就像一个沙漏一样，不论是四年还是八年，都是一个有限的时间。大多数人在白宫待不满四年，我想平均是18个月。这很累人，但这是唯一一段时间，当你和自己的孩子在家时，你会想到你遇到的所有人，并对没有尽全力推进那些利益的时间感到内疚。作为父母，这种感觉非常困难，而且要时刻保持在场状态，始终需要接听电话，保持待命，也很有挑战性。这很难，也很让人精疲力尽，但同时，这也是世界上最大的特权。
So through that the storm all that the hardship of that what was the role of family through all that Jared and the kids what was that like that was that was everything you know to have that to have the support systems I had in place with with my husband and you know we had we had left New York and wound up in Washington and New York I lived 10 blocks away from my mother-in-law who if I wasn't taking my kids to school she was so we lost some of that which was very hard but we had what mattered which was each other and um and you know my kids were young when I got to Washington, Tendio my youngest was eight months old and Arabella my oldest my daughter was five years old so they were still quite young we have a son Joseph who's three and uh and I think for me like the dose of levity coming home at night and having them there and just joyful and um it was super grounding and important for me.
所以，在经历风暴和所有困难时，家庭的角色是什么呢？对于我来说，那就是一切。拥有我丈夫的支持系统对我非常重要。当时我们已经离开了纽约，搬到了华盛顿。在纽约时，我住在离我婆婆家十个街区的地方，如果不是我送孩子们去上学，就是她送。所以，我们失去了一些便利，这很困难。但最重要的是我们还有彼此。
当我到华盛顿时，我的孩子们还很小。最小的孩子Tendio只有八个月大，而我的大女儿Arabella已经五岁了，所以他们仍然很小。我们的儿子Joseph三岁。我觉得每天晚上回家看到他们，感受到他们带来的快乐和轻松，这对我来说是非常重要的，并且让我保持清醒和脚踏实地。
I still remember Tio um when he was around three three and a half years old Jared used to make me coffee every morning and I was like my great luxury that I would sit there he still makes it for me every morning I told him I'm never I secretly know how to actually work the coffee machine but I've convinced him that I have no idea how to work the coffee machine now I'm going to be fun but um I just skill I don't want to learn because it's it's one of his like acts of love he brings me coffee every morning in bed while I read the newspapers and um and Tio would watch this and so he got Jared to teach him how to make coffee and Thio learned how to make like a full blown cappuccino and he was so he had so much joy in every morning bringing me this cappuccino and I remember like the sound of his little steps you know like the slide it's um it was so cute coming down the hallway with my like perfectly foamed cappuccino.
我还记得提欧大约三岁半的时候，贾里德每天早上都给我煮咖啡，这对我来说是个巨大的奢侈。他至今每天早上还会为我煮咖啡，我告诉他，我其实不会使用咖啡机，虽然我其实是知道怎么用的，但我总是装作不知道，因为这是他表达爱的方式之一。他每天早上都会在我读报纸的时候，给我端来床边的咖啡。提欧看到这一切，就让贾里德教他如何煮咖啡。提欧学会煮出了一杯满满的卡布奇诺，他每天早上都乐此不疲地把这杯咖啡拿给我。我还记得他小小的脚步声，就像滑过走廊那样可爱，然后给我端来那杯奶泡完美的卡布奇诺。
Now I try to get him to make me coffee and he's like come on mom that was a moment in time but we had a lot of like little um moments like that that were just amazing so yeah I got a chance to chat with him and he has a his silliness and sense of humor it's um yeah it's really joyful yeah I can see how that could be an escape from the madness of Washington of the adult life and then we're young enough we really kept like our home life pretty sheltered from everything else and we were able to do so because they were so young and because they weren't connected to the internet they were too young for smartphones all of these things we were able to shelter and protect them and allow them to have as normal as upbringing as was possible in the context we were living and uh and they brought me lately and continued to bring me so much so much joy but they were I mean without Jared and without the kids it it would have been much more lonely.
现在我尝试让他为我冲杯咖啡，但他就说：得了吧，妈妈，那只是一个瞬间。不过我们确实有很多类似的小瞬间，让人觉得很美好。是的，我有机会和他聊天，他有他特有的幽默感和搞笑风格，这让人感觉非常开心。我能理解这怎么能让人从华盛顿的喧嚣和成人生活的烦扰中得到解脱。当时我们还很年轻，真的让我们的家庭生活跟外界隔绝得很好，因为孩子们还小，他们还没有接触互联网，也太小还不能用智能手机。因此，我们能够保护他们，让他们在我们生活的环境中尽量过上正常的成长生活。他们最近给我带来了无比的欢乐，并且一直在带给我许多快乐。没有贾里德和孩子们的话，那段时光将会孤独得多。
So three kids you've now upgraded two dogs in a hamster well our second dogs we rescued him thinking he we thought he was probably like part German shepherd part lab is what we were told he's now I don't even know if he qualifies as a dog he's like the size of horse yeah basically horse Simba so I don't think he has much lab in him I think we Joseph has not wanted to do a DNA test um because he really wanted a German shepherd. so he's a German shepherd he's he's gigantic and we also have a hamster who's the newest addition because my son Theo he tried to get um he tried to get a dog as well our first dog winter um became my daughter's dog as she wouldn't let her brothers play with him or sleep with him and was old enough to bully them into submission so then Joseph wanted a dog in gut Simba Theo now wants a dog and has buster the hamster in the interim so we'll see what advice would you give to other mothers just having planning on having kids and maybe advise yourself huh figuring out this puzzle I think being a parent um you have to cultivate within yourself like hide in levels of empathy you have to really look at each child and see them for who they are what they enjoy what they love and and and meet them where they're at and I think that can be enormously challenging when your kids are so different in temperament you know as they could older that difference in temperament may be within the same child depending on the moment of the day um but it's it really I think it's actually made me a much softer person a much better listener.
所以，你已经有三个孩子，现在又多了两只狗和一只仓鼠。至于我们的第二只狗，我们是从收容所领养的，起初被告知它可能是德国牧羊犬和拉布拉多的混血。但现在它长得太大了，我甚至不敢确定它算不算狗了，简直就是一匹马的大小，就像马一样的大狮子王辛巴那样。我觉得它可能不像我们想的拉布拉多品种，约瑟夫一直不愿意做DNA测试，因为他真的很想要一只德国牧羊犬，所以他就当它是德国牧羊犬，它真的太巨大了。
我们还养了只仓鼠，这是我们最近的新成员，因为我的儿子西奥也想要一只狗。我们的第一只狗冬天，已经成为我女儿的狗，因为她根本不让她的兄弟们跟它一起玩或一起睡。她足够有权威来让他们屈服，所以约瑟夫想要一只狗，于是就有了辛巴，而西奥现在也想要一只狗，目前在照顾着仓鼠巴斯特。所以我们会看看情况发展。
至于给那些正在考虑生孩子的妈妈们的建议，以及给我自己的建议，我认为作为父母，你需要在自己内心培养出高度的同理心，真正去观察每一个孩子，了解他们是谁，他们喜欢什么，热爱什么，并以他们的状态去理解和陪伴他们。我认为，当孩子性格差异很大的时候，这可能是一个很大的挑战。随着他们长大，这种性格差异甚至可能存在于同一个孩子身上，根据一天中的不同时间表现出来。但我觉得，这实际上让我变得更加温柔，更加善于倾听。
I think I see people more truly for for who they are as opposed to how I want them to be sometimes and I think being a parent to three children who are all exceptional and all incredibly different has has enabled that in me I think for for me though they've also been like some migratus teachers in that we were talking about the the presence you felt when you were in the jungle and the the connectivity you felt and sort of the simple joy and I think for for us as we grow older we kind of disconnect from that like my kids have taught me how to play again um and that's beautiful I remember just a couple of weeks ago we had one of these crazy Miami torrential down for us an arabella comes down it's around eight o'clock at night it's it's really raining and she's got rain boots and pajama pants on and she's gonna take the dogs for a one rain which you know she had all day to walk but she but she wasn't doing it because they needed to go for a walk and she was like this would be fun and I'm standing in the doorstep watching her and she goes out with simba and winch her this massive dog and this little tiny dog and I'm watching her walk to the end of the driveway and she's just dancing and it's pouring and I took off my shoes and I went out and I joined her and we danced in the rain and even as like a preteen who would normally you know she like allowed me to experience the joy with her um and it was it was amazing we can be so much more fun if we allow ourselves to be more playful we can be so much more present I look at a Theo loves games so we play a whole lot of board games any kind of game um so it started with board games um we do a lot of puzzles uh that it became card games I just taught him how to play poker nice he loves backam in like any kind of game and he's so fully in them you know when he plays he plays my son Joseph he loves nature and he'll say to me sometimes when like I'm taking a picture of something he's observing like a beautiful sunset he's like mom just experience it I'm like yes you're right Joseph just experience it.
我认为，有时候我可以更加真实地看到人们的本质，而不是我希望他们成为的样子。我觉得，养育三个截然不同且非常出色的孩子，让我有了这样的能力。对我来说，他们就像一些轻盈的老师，我们曾谈到过在丛林中感受到的那种存在感、连结感和简单的快乐。随着年龄的增长，我们逐渐失去了这些感受。而我的孩子们教会了我重新去玩，这真是太美好了。
记得几周前，迈阿密下了一场倾盆大雨。晚上八点左右，Arabella 穿着雨靴和睡裤准备带小狗出去淋雨。虽然她整天都有时间遛狗，但她只是觉得这样做会很有趣。我站在门口看着她，她牵着Simba和Winch（大狗和小狗）走到车道尽头，然后在倾盆大雨中跳舞。我脱下鞋子，走出去加入她，一起在雨中舞蹈。即便是在她这个年纪，她还是让我和她一起体验了这种快乐，那真是太棒了。
如果我们允许自己更具玩心，就会发现生活充满乐趣，也能更加专注于当下。比如说，Theo 热爱各种游戏，我们经常一起玩桌游、做拼图，后来变成玩牌。我教会了他如何玩扑克，他也非常喜欢西洋双陆棋。每次玩游戏的时候，他都会全身心投入其中。
至于我的儿子 Joseph，他热爱大自然。有时候，当我在拍摄美丽日落时，他会对我说：“妈妈，只管去感受吧。”我会意识到他的正确：是啊，Joseph，只需要去感受就好。
you know so so they those kids have taught me so much about sort of reconnecting with what's real and what's true and being present in the moment and uh an experiencing joy they always give you permission to sort of uh reignite the inner child to get kid again yeah and it's interesting what you said the puzzle of noticing each human being like what makes them beautiful the unique characteristics like what they're good at the way they want to be mentored like I often see that um especially with coaches and athletes young athletes aspiring to be great each athlete needs to be trained in a different way like I for example with some you need a softer approach like with me I always like like a dictatorial approach I like the coach to be this like menacing figure that's one that that brought out the best of me I didn't want to be friends with the coach like I want to almost like weird to say we yelled at like put to be pushed but that doesn't work for everybody uh and that's a risk you have to take as a in the coach context of like because you can't just yell at everybody.
这些孩子教会了我很多，比如重新连接真实和真相，活在当下并感受快乐。他们总是给你机会重新唤醒内心的孩子，让自己再次变得像个孩子。你提到的很有意思，就是观察每个人，发现他们的美丽与独特之处，比如他们擅长什么，希望如何被指导。这一点我在教练与运动员、尤其是那些怀揣伟大梦想的年轻运动员中也常常看到。每个运动员都需要不同的训练方式，比如有些人需要更柔和的方式。而对于我来说，我喜欢权威型的教练，喜欢那种令人生畏的形象，因为那会激发出我最好的一面。我并不想与教练做朋友，甚至有点奇怪地说，我希望被吼，被推到极限。但这种方法并不适合所有人，作为教练这是你需要承担的风险，因为你不能对所有人都大喊大叫。
yeah you have to figure out like what does each person need and when uh you have kids I imagine the puzzle is even harder and when they all need different things but yet coexist and are sometimes competitive with one another so you'll be at a dinner table the amount of times I get well that's not fair why did you let and I'm like life isn't fair and by the way like I'm not here to be fair I'm like I'm trying to give you each what you need especially when I've been working really hard and you know I in the White House that say okay well now we have a Sunday and we have these hours and I'll I'll have like a grand plan you know and we're gonna make it count and it's gonna involve you know hot chocolate and sleds you know whatever whatever it is at like my great adventure they we're gonna go play mini-gall and then I come down all psyched up all ready to go and uh the kids of zero interest and there have been a lot of times I've been like we're doing this thing and and then I realize wait a second you know like sometimes you just like plop down on the floor and start playing magnetiles you know and like that's where they need you and so so those of us who have sort of like alpha personalities who sometimes it's just just witness like witness what they need don't like play with them and allow them to lead the play don't force them down a road you may think is more interesting or productive or educational or edifying you know just just be with them observe them and and then show them that you are genuinely curious about the things that they are genuinely curious about I think there's a lot of love when you do that also there's just fascinating puzzles.
是的，你需要弄清楚每个人需要什么，以及什么时候需要这样东西。如果你有孩子，我想这个“拼图”会更加复杂，因为他们每个人需要的东西都不同，但又要共存，有时还会相互竞争。比如在餐桌上，我常听到孩子们抱怨“这不公平，你为什么让他……”，每当这时我就想，生活本来就不公平。而且我不是来这里做一个公平仲裁者的，我是在努力给予每个人所需的东西，尤其是在我非常忙碌的工作之余，比如要在白宫工作的时候。
通常到了周日，我会有一个宏伟计划，我们要好好利用这段时间，可能会包括喝热巧克力、玩雪橇或者其他活动，比如去玩迷你高尔夫。我原本充满激情，准备出发，但孩子们却毫无兴趣。很多次我都坚持要完成这个计划，后来我意识到，有时候你只需要坐在地板上，和他们一起玩磁力积木，这才是他们真正需要的。
对于那些性格上比较主动的人来说，有时我们需要学会去观察：去关注孩子们真正需要的东西，不要强迫他们去做你认为更有趣或更有教育意义的事情。和他们在一起，观察他们，表现出你对他们真正感兴趣的事情感到好奇。我觉得当你这样做的时候，会充满了爱。此外，这样做也总能带来一些有趣的“拼图”。
I was talking to a friend yesterday and she has four kids and uh they fight a lot and she she generally wants to break up the fights but she's like I'm not sure if I'm just supposed to let them fight can they figure it out but you always break break them up because I'm told that it's okay for the fight kids to do that they kind of figure out their own situation that's part of like the growing up process but you want to always especially if it's physical they're like pushing each other you want to kind of stop it but uh at the same time it's also part of the play part of the dynamics that that's a puzzle you also have to figure out and plus you're probably worried that they're gonna get hurt if they're well I think there's like when it gets physical yeah that's like okay we have to intervene I know you're into martial arts but that's normally like the red line you know once it once it tips into that but there is always that you know like you have to allow them to problems off for themselves like a little inner personal conflict is good it's really hard when you try to navigate something because everyone thinks you're taking their side you have oftentimes incomplete information.
昨天我和一个朋友聊天，她有四个孩子，他们经常打架。她通常想要阻止他们的争吵，但她又不确定是否应该让他们自己去解决。有人告诉她说，孩子们打打闹闹是可以的，这也是他们成长过程的一部分。这种争吵实际上是他们之间的一种交流方式。但如果是身体上的推搡，就让人很想去制止，因为可能会有人受伤。
不过，她也明白这是孩子们成长和游戏的一部分，是他们相处动态中的一个谜题，而我们也需要去理解和解决。此外，她可能还要担心孩子们会受伤，尤其是当冲突有可能升级为身体对抗时，就必须介入。虽然她对武术很有兴趣，也知道在哪里划出那条"红线"，一旦越过了就需要干预。但与此同时，我们也要允许孩子们自己去解决问题，小的冲突对他们是有好处的。当你试着去调解这些事情时，可能会感觉很困难，因为不同的人会觉得你在偏袒某一方，而我们往往掌握的信息也不够完整。
It's um I think for parents what tends to happen too is we see our kids fighting with each other in a way that all kids do and we start to project into the future and like catastrophize you know if like my two sons are going through a moment where they're like oil and water anything one wants to do the other doesn't want to do it's like a very interesting moment so by instinct is they're not gonna like each other when they're 25 you know you sort of project into the future as opposed to recognizing this is a stage that I too went through and it's normal and not building it in your mind into into something that's unnecessarily consequential it's short term formative conflict.
对于父母来说，我们常常看到孩子们像所有孩子一样互相争吵，然后开始对未来进行投射，甚至夸大其词。例如，如果我的两个儿子有一段时间像水与油一样，一个想做的事情另一个永远不想做，那是一个非常有趣的时刻。但我的本能反应是，他们25岁时可能会不喜欢彼此。相反，我们应该认识到这只是一个阶段，我自己也经历过，这很正常，不要在心里把它变成不必要的严重后果。这只是短期的、具有塑造意义的冲突。
yeah so uh ever since 2016 the the number and the level of attacks you've been under has been steadily increasing has been super intense how do you walk through the fire of that you've been very stoic about the whole thing I don't think I've ever seen you respond to an attack you just let it pass over you you stay positive and you focus on solving problems and you didn't engage while being in DC you didn't engage into the back and forth fire of the politics so what's your philosophy behind that I appreciate your saying that I was very stoic about it I think you know I feel things pretty deeply so initially sub-mofat really took me off guard like some of the derivative love and hatred um some of the intensity of of of the attacks um and there were times when it was it was so easy to counter it I'd even write something out and and say well I'm gonna I'm gonna press send and never did I I felt that sort of getting into the mud fighting back it didn't run true to who I am as a human being like it didn't it felt at odds with with who I am and how I want to spend my time.
是这样，从2016年以来，你所面临的攻击数量和强度一直在稳步增加。这些攻击非常激烈。那么，你是如何应对这些考验的呢？你在整个过程中表现得非常坚忍。我想我从来没有见过你对攻击做出回应，你只是让它们过去，你保持积极，专注于解决问题，而且在华盛顿期间你没有参与到政治的互相攻讦中。那么，你背后的理念是什么呢？
我很感谢你提到我对此事表现得非常坚忍。我其实挺容易感受到事情的深层次情感，所以一开始的时候，一些衍生的爱与恨，还有攻击的激烈程度，确实让我措手不及。有时候，很容易反击，我甚至写好了一些回应，并准备发送，但终究没发送。我感觉到，参与泥潭争斗，这样的行为不符合我的本性，感觉与我的身份和我想要花费时间的方式背道而驰。
so I think as a result I was oftentimes on the receiving end of a lot of a lot of cheap shots and I'm okay with that because it's sort of the way I know how to be in the world I was focused on things I thought mattered more and you know I think part of me also internalize there's a concept in Judaism called Lushenhara which is translated into I think quite literally evil speech and the idea that you know speaking poorly of another is almost the moral equivalent to murder because you can't really repair it you can apologize but you can't repair it another component of that is that it does as much damage to the person saying the words um then it does to the person receiving them and I think about that a lot I talk about this concept with with my kids a lot um and I'm not willing to pay the price of that fleeting and momentary satisfaction of of sort of swinging back because I think it would be it would be too expensive for my soul and and that's how I kind of made peace with it because I think that's just that feels more true for me but it is a little bit contrary in politics it's uh it's definitely um it's definitely a contrary and viewpoint um to to not get into the fray actually someday I love Dolly Parton says that um she doesn't condemn or criticize she loves and accepts and I like that it feels it feels right for me.
所以，我认为正因为如此，我常常成为很多轻蔑攻击的对象，而我对此没关系，因为这就是我在这个世界上生存的方式。我专注于那些我认为更重要的事情。你知道，我想我的一部分也内化了一个犹太教的概念，叫做Lashon Hara，字面意思翻译过来就是“邪恶的言语”。这个概念认为，说他人的坏话几乎是在道德上等同于谋杀，因为你无法真正修复它，你可以道歉，但无法修复。同时，这些话对说话的人造成的伤害不亚于对听者造成的伤害。我经常想到这个概念，并和我的孩子们讨论这个问题。我不愿意为了那短暂的满足感而挥拳还击，因为我认为那对我的灵魂来说代价太高。我就这样与这一切和解，因为这对我来说更真实。然而，在政治中这种观点有些反潮流，不卷入纷争确实是不走寻常路。有一天，我喜欢的多莉·帕顿说她不指责或批评别人，她选择爱和接受。我觉得这样做对我来说很合适。
I also like that you said that words have power it's not sometimes people say well words when you speak negatively of others out that's just words but I think there's a cost to that there's a cost like you said to your soul and there's a cost in terms of the damage you can do to the other person uh whether it's to their reputation publicly or to them privately it just is a human being psychologically and in the place that it puts them because they think they start thinking negatively in general and then maybe they respond and there's this vicious downward spiral that happens they're almost like we don't intend to but it destroys everybody in the process you quoted Alan Watts I love him in uh saying quote you're under no obligation to be the same person you wore five minutes ago so uh how have the years in DC and the years after uh change you I love Alan Watts too I I listened to his uh lecture sometimes falling asleep he's got like an on planes he's got like the most soothing voice but um but I love what he said about you have no obligation to be who you were five minutes ago because we should always feel that we have the ability to evolve and grow and and and better ourselves.
我也很喜欢你说“言语有力量”这句话。有时候人们会说，贬低别人的话语只是一些字词而已，但我认为这会带来代价。正如你所说，这对我们的灵魂有代价，也会对他人造成伤害——无论是对他们的公众声誉还是对他们个人心理的影响。这种负面概念会让人从内心开始变得消极，进而采取不良反应，并引发一种恶性向下的循环。虽然我们并不想这样，但在这个过程中可能会摧毁所有人。你引用了艾伦·沃茨的话，我非常喜欢他，他说“你没有义务保持过去五分钟的样子”。那么，在华盛顿的这些年和之后的岁月中是如何改变你的呢？我也很喜欢艾伦·沃茨，有时听他的讲座入睡，他的声音就像在飞机上听到的最舒缓的声音。我很喜欢他说“你没有义务成为五分钟前的自己”，因为我们应该始终觉得自己有能力去改进和成长，变得更好。
like I think further than that if we don't look back on her who we were a few years ago with some level of embarrassment we're not growing enough right so there's nothing I when I look back I'm like oh you know it's I feel like that that feeling is you know because you're growing into into hopefully you know sort of a better version of yourself and I hope and feel that that's been that's been true for me as well I think the person I am today you know we spoke um in in the beginning of our discussion about um some of my earliest ambitions and real estate and in fashion and those were amazing adventures and um and incredible experiences and government and I feel today that all of those ambitions are more fully integrated into me as a human being I'm much more comfortable with the various pieces of my personality and that any professional drive is more integrated into more simple pleasures like everything for me has gotten like much simpler and easier in terms of what I want to do and what I want to be and and um I think that's where you know my kids have been my teachers just being fully present um and enjoying like the little moments and it doesn't mean I'm any less like driven than I was before it's just more a part of me than um being sort of the all-consuming energy one has in their 20s yeah just like you said will your mom be able to let go yeah enjoy the. water the sun the beach yeah and enjoy the moment the simple the simplicity of the moment I think a lot about the fact that you know for for a lot of young people they they really know what they want to do but they don't actually know who they are and then I think as you get older hopefully you know who you are and you're much more comfortable with ambiguity around what you want to do and accomplish you're more flexible in your thinking around those things and give yourself permission to be who you are.
我认为，如果我们不时常回顾几年前的自己，并感到些许尴尬，那么我们的成长就不够。回顾过去时，我常常意识到那种感觉表明自己正在成长，希望能成为更好的版本。我觉得,对我来说这是真的。与最初讨论时提到的早期志向有关，无论是房地产、时尚还是政府工作，这些都是非常精彩的冒险和美好的经历。如今，我感到所有这些志向更完整地融入了我这个人，我对自己个性的方方面面更加自如。我的职业目标也更自然地融入了简单的快乐之中。
现在，我对自己想要做什么和想成为什么，都变得更加简单和轻松。在这个过程中，我的孩子们就像老师一样教会我活在当下，享受每一个小瞬间。这并不意味着我比以前少了斗志，而是这种动力已经成为我生命的一部分，而不是像二十多岁时那种耗尽一切精力的追求。正如你提到的，是否能享受阳光、沙滩和水，还能享受当下那简单的快乐。
我常常想到，许多年轻人知道想做什么，但对自己是谁并不清楚。随着年纪增长，希望能够更了解自己，也更加适应对未来事业的模糊感，对目标的思考更加灵活，也更能允许自己成为真正的自己。
yeah you made the decision not to engage in the politics of the 2024 campaign if it's okay let me read what you wrote on the topic quote I love my father very much this time around I'm choosing to prioritize my young children and the private life who are creating as a family I do not plan to be involved in politics while I will always love and support my father going forward I will do so outside the political arena I'm grateful to have had the honor of serving the American people and I will always be proud of many of our administration's accomplishments so can you explain your thinking your philosophy behind that decision I think first and foremost it was a decision rooted in me being a parent really thinking about what they need from me now you know politics is is a rough rough business and I think it's one that you also can't dabble in I think you have to either be all in or or all out and I know today the cost they would pay for me being all in emotionally in terms of my absence at such a formative point in their life and I'm not willing to make them bear that cost I serve for four years and feel so privileged to have done it but as their mom I think it's it's it's really important that I do what's right for them and and I think there are a lot of ways you can serve you know I think there's obviously we talked about the enormity the scale of what can be accomplished in in government service but you know I think there's something equally valuable about helping within your own community and I volunteer with the kids a lot and we feel really good about that service it's different but it's no less meaningful.
当然可以。这段话的意思是：
“是的，你做出了不参与2024年竞选政治的决定。请允许我读一下你在这个话题上写的内容：‘我非常爱我的父亲，这一次我选择优先考虑我的年幼孩子和我们作为一个家庭正在创造的私人生活。我不打算参与政治。虽然我将永远爱并支持我的父亲，但我会在政治领域之外做到这一点。我很感激有机会为美国人民服务，并且我将永远为我们政府的许多成就感到自豪。’请解释一下你做出这个决定的想法和哲学。
我认为首先这是一项根植于我作为父母的决定，真正思考现在孩子们需要我什么。你知道，政治是个非常艰难的领域，我认为你不能在其中浅尝辄止，你要么全心投入，要么完全退出。我很清楚，今天如果我全心投入，他们将在情感上付出代价，因为这会让我在他们人生的一个关键阶段缺席，而我不愿让他们承担这个代价。我服务了四年，并感到非常荣幸能做到这一点，但作为他们的母亲，我认为对他们做正确的事情非常重要。我认为有很多方式可以服务社会，我们谈到了在政府服务中能实现的巨大成就，但我认为在你自己的社区中提供帮助同样有价值。我经常和孩子们一起做志愿者，我们对这种服务感到非常满意。这种服务不同，但同样有意义。”
so I think there are other ways there are other ways to serve I also think for you know politics is is a it's a pretty dark world like there's a lot of darkness a lot of negativity and it's just really at odds with what feels good for me as a human being and you know it is it's a really it's a really rough business so so for me and my family it feels right to not participate so it wears on your soul and yeah there is a bit at least from an outsider's perspective a bit of darkness in that part of our world I wish you didn't have to be this way me too I think part of that darkness is just watching all the legal turmoil that's going on what's it like for you to see that your father involved in that going through that on a human level it's my father and I love him very much so it's it's painful to experience but ultimately I wish it didn't have to be this way I like it that underneath all this I love my father is the thing that you lead with that's so true it is it is family and I hope I missed all this turmoil love is the thing that wins it usually does in the end.
因此，我认为有其他方式可以提供服务。我还认为，政治是一个相当黑暗的领域，里面充满了很多阴暗和消极的东西，这与我作为一个人的感觉格格不入。政治真的是一项艰难的事业，所以对于我和我的家人来说，不参与其中是正确的选择。这种环境会影响人的灵魂，而且从外人的角度来看，这个世界的这一部分确实有一些阴暗。我希望事情不必这样，我也是。而这种阴暗的一部分是看到所有法律纠纷正在发生，你的父亲卷入其中，经历这些对你来说是什么感觉？从人性上讲，那是我的爸爸，我非常爱他，所以经历这一切是很痛苦的。但最终，我希望事情不必这样。我很喜欢，在这一切之下，对父亲的爱是你首先表达的。这是真的，家人至上。我希望在所有这些动荡中，爱是胜出的东西，它通常最终会胜出。
yes but in the short term there is like we were talking about there's a bit of big ring but at least no more duels no more duels you mentioned dolly part that's a segue listen I'm not very good at this thing I'm trying to fix that okay that we both love dolly part I mean so you're you're big into live music so maybe you can mention why you love dolly part I definitely would love to talk I would love to interview her she's such an icon I hope you do what I love about her and I've really come to love her in recent years is she's so authentically herself and she's obviously so talented and and so accomplished and this extraordinary woman but I just feel like she has no conflict within herself as to who she is she reminds me a lot of my mom in that way and and it's super refreshing and and really beautiful to observe somebody somebody who's so in the public eye being so fully secure and in who they are what their talent is and what drives them so I think she's she's amazing and she leads with a lot of like love and positivity so I think she's very cool I hope you have a long conversation.
是的，但短期内，就像我们之前谈到的，有点小麻烦，但至少不再有决斗。你提到了多莉·帕顿，顺便说一下，我不是很擅长这类事情，我正试图改进这一点。我们都很喜欢多莉·帕顿。我的意思是，你非常喜欢现场音乐，所以也许你可以谈谈为什么你喜欢多莉·帕顿。我真的很想谈谈她，也很想采访她。她是一位传奇人物。我希望你能做到。我喜欢她的地方，尤其是在最近几年，我真的很喜欢她，是因为她非常真实。她显然很有才华，成就斐然，是一位非凡的女性。但我觉得她内心对自己没有任何矛盾。她在这方面让我想起了我的妈妈。看到一个如此受到公众关注的人能够如此自信地展现自我，认同自己的才华和动力，真是令人耳目一新、非常美好。我觉得她很了不起，她带来了很多爱和积极的能量，我认为她真的很酷。希望你们能有一段长时间的谈话。
yeah she's like okay so there's many things to say about her first like incredibly great musician songwriters performer yeah also can create an image and have fun with it you know like have fun being herself like over the top it feels that way right like she's really she enjoys after all these years it feels like she's enjoying she like enjoys what she does and you also have the sense that if she didn't she wouldn't do it that's right and just an iconic country musician country music singer yeah there's a lot we've talked about a lot of musicians what do you enjoy you mentioned Adele seeing her perform hang out with her.
是的，她就像这样，好吧，首先，有很多关于她的事情可以说。她是一位极其出色的音乐家、词曲创作者和表演者，而且她还能创造出独特的形象，并乐在其中。你知道吗，她就是很享受做自己，表现得很夸张，让人感觉她这些年来真的很开心，就像她真的喜欢她所做的事情。你也会觉得，如果她不喜欢，她就不会去做。她是一位标志性的乡村音乐歌手。我们聊过很多音乐家，你提到过喜欢Adele，看她的演出，和她一起玩耍。
yeah I mean she's extraordinary her voice is unreal so she is I find her to be so talented and she's so unique in that three-year-old love her music she's actually the first concert Arabile ever went to and Madison Square Garden when she wished she was around four and nine-year-olds love her music and that's pretty rare to have that kind of band with a resonance so so I think she's so talented we actually just saw her I took all three kids in Las Vegas around a month ago Alice Johnson whose case I had worked with in the White House my father commuted her sentence her her case was brought to me by a friend Kim Kardashian and and she came to the show we all went together with some mutual friends and I was like a very profound it was amazing to see Adele but it was a very profound experience for me to have with my kids because she rode with us in in a car on the way to the show and and she talked to my kids about her experience in her story and how her case found its way to me.
好的，我的意思是，她真的很了不起，她的嗓音非同寻常。我觉得她非常有才华，而且很独特。三岁的小孩都喜欢她的音乐，她实际上是Arabella参加的第一个演唱会，那是在麦迪逊广场花园，当时她大概四岁。而且九岁的孩子也喜欢她的音乐，能吸引这么广泛年龄段的乐迷实属罕见。所以，我认为她非常有才华。大约一个月前，我带着我的三个孩子在拉斯维加斯看了她的演出。Alice Johnson是我在白宫工作时帮忙过的一个案子，我父亲减刑了她的案件，这个案子是通过Kim Kardashian介绍给我的。我们和一些共同的朋友一起去看演出，那真是一次非常深刻的经历。能看到阿黛尔让我很激动，但和我的孩子一起经历这一切则更具意义。她和我们一起坐车去演唱会，并向我的孩子们讲述了她的经历和故事，以及这个案子是如何找到我的。
and I think for young children it's very abstract you know policy and so for her to be able to share with them this was a very beautiful moment and led to a lot of really incredible conversations with each of my kids about our time and service because you know they gave up a lot for for me to do it actually Alice told them the most beautiful story about the play she used to put on in prison how these shows were like the hottest ticket in town like you could knock it into them they always extended their run and um but for the people who were in them a lot of those men and women had never experienced a pause nobody had ever shown up at their games or at their plays or and and clapped for them and the emotional experience of just being able to give someone that you know being able to stand and and applaud for someone and how meaningful that was and she was showing us pictures from these different productions and it was a really it was a beautiful moment Alice actually after um her sentence was commuted and and she came out of prison together we worked on 23 different partings or commutations so so the impact of of her experience and how she was able to to take her her opportunity and create that same opportunity for others who who were deserving and and who she believed in was was very beautiful so anyway that was an extraordinary concert experience for my kids to be able to have that moment.
我认为对于小孩子来说，政策这些概念非常抽象。所以，当她能够与他们分享这些时，那是一个非常美好的时刻，并且引发了我与每个孩子之间关于我们服务时光的许多令人难以置信的谈话。因为你知道，他们其实牺牲了很多，让我能够去做这件事。其实，Alice给他们讲了一个很美的故事，关于她在监狱里排演的戏剧，这些演出就像镇上最抢手的票一样，你根本进不去，他们的演出总是会延长。而对那些参与的人来说，那些男男女女从未体验过这种欢呼时刻，以前没有人会在他们的比赛或演出中出现并为他们鼓掌。能够给予别人这种情感体验，能够站立起来为某人喝彩，是多么有意义。她还向我们展示了这些不同剧目的照片，那真是一个美好的时刻。Alice被减刑并出狱后，我们一起努力争取了23次赦免或减刑。她的经历，以及她如何利用自己的机会为其他同样值得并且她相信的人创造机会，真的是非常美好的。因此，对我的孩子们来说，那是一段非凡的音乐会经历，能有这样的时刻真是太好了。
what a story so just that's the sort of the uh because here we are dancing at a del exactly exactly like that turning point six years later was almost to the day so that that policy that meeting meaning of the miser's ultimate and major turning point in her life analysis life and not only her dancing and now we're at a del yeah I mean you mentioned also there I've seen commutations where it's it's an opportunity to step in and consider the ways that the justice system does not always work well um I can case is when it's nonviolent crime and drug offenses there's a case of a person uh you mentioned that received a life sentence for selling weed yeah it you know and it's just the number it's like hundreds of thousands of people are in the federal president jail and system for drug for selling drugs that's the only thing with no no violence on their record. whatsoever and it's obviously there's a lot of complexity there's the details matter but oftentimes the justice system does not um do right in the way we think right is and it's nice to be able to step in and help people like and direct they're overlooked and they have no advocate Jared um and I helped in a small way on his effort but he really um spearheaded the effort on on criminal justice reform through the first step act which was an enormously consequential piece of legislation that gave so many people another opportunity and that was amazing.
这真是一个故事，所以就是这样，因为我们现在正好在舞会上跳舞，这一切真的是一个重大转折点，几乎六年后的同一天也发生了类似的事情。那个决策、那次会议，成了她甚至是她一生中一个终极、关键的转折点，不仅仅是对她的舞蹈生涯。是的，你也提到过，我见过一些情况，这些情况提供了一个机会去思考司法系统并不总是运作良好的方式。比如当涉及非暴力犯罪和毒品犯罪的时候，有一个人因卖大麻而被判终身监禁。这真的让人震惊，因为有成千上万的人因为贩卖毒品而被关进联邦监狱，他们的记录上并没有暴力行为。显然，情况很复杂，细节很重要，但司法系统往往并没有按照我们认为的正确方式来运作。能够介入并帮助那些被忽视、没有人为他们辩护的人真是太好了。贾里德和我在这方面做了一些小小的努力，但实际上是他领导了通过《第一步法案》的刑事司法改革，这是一项非常重要的立法，给了许多人另一个机会，真的太棒了。
so working with him closely on that was was a beautiful thing for us to also experience together but in the final days of the administration you know you're not getting legislation passed and anything you do administratively is going to be probably overturned by an incoming administration so you know how do you use that time for maximum results and I really like dug in on on partens and commutations that I thought were were um were overdue and and were worthy and um and my last night in Washington DC I the gentleman you mentioned Corvon I was on the phone with his mother at uh 1230 in the morning telling her that her son would be getting out the next day you know so and it felt really it's it's one person but you see with Alice like the ripple effect of you know the commutation granted to her and her ability and the impact she'll have within her family with her grandkids um and now she's an advocate for so many others who are voiceless you know it felt like it felt like the perfect way to end four years to be able to um to be able to call those parents and call those kids in some cases and and give them the news that a loved one was coming home.
与他紧密合作，对我们来说是一段美好的经历。但在政府的最后阶段，你很清楚立法难以通过，任何行政决定都有可能被新政府推翻。所以，要想最大化利用这段时间，我特别专注于审查那些我认为被久拖的赦免和减刑案件。
我在华盛顿特区的最后一晚，凌晨12点半，我打电话给你提到的那位科尔文的母亲，告诉她她的儿子第二天就能出狱。这虽然只是帮助了一个人，但就像之前艾丽斯的案子一样，她获得减刑后所产生的连锁效应，对家庭，对孙辈的影响，以及她如今作为倡导者为无声者发声的努力，都显示了这样的行动的深远意义。
能够在四年任期的尾声告诉那些父母和孩子，他们的亲人即将回家，让我们感受到了完美的终结。
and I'll just love the cool image of you Kim Kardashian and Alice just dancing on a del show with the kids I love well Kim wasn't at the adalash show but but she's the she had connected as it was beautiful yeah the way the word dealt like can hold just like the bad assness she has on stage oh yeah she does like hard break songs like better than anyone or no it's not even hard break like what's what's that genre of song like rolling in the deep like a little anger a little love a little like something a little attitude and just like one of the greatest voices ever all that together just her by herself yeah you can strip it down and the power of her voice you know I think about that one of the things you're talking about live music I one of the amazing things now is you there's so much incredible concert material that's been uploaded to youtube so sometimes I just sit there and watch these like old shows we both love Stevie Ray Vaughn like watching him perform you can even find old videos of like Django Reinhardt got me got me to do Texas flood at this moment.
我喜欢这样一个画面：金·卡戴珊和爱丽丝在一个演出上和孩子们一起跳舞，虽然金没有在那个演出上，但她的存在能让人感受到一种美好。她在舞台上的那种自信就像是她的标志。她的歌曲风格独特，结合了愤怒、爱和态度，拥有强大的声音，能够独自一人将这些元素完美呈现。有时，你能感受到她音乐的力量，这让我想到现场音乐的魅力。现在的一个好处是可以在YouTube上找到很多精彩的演唱会视频，比如我们都喜欢的史蒂维·雷·沃恩的表演，甚至还能找到像姜戈·莱因哈特这样传奇人物的旧视频。这些会让我产生去演绎《德州洪水》的冲动。
which is hilarious that you said like one of the songs you really like of Stevie's just Texas flood well my bucket list is to learn how to play it it's bucket list it's bucket list you made me feel so good because for me Texas flood was the first solo on guitar ever learning because for me it was the like the impossible solo yeah and then that was so I worked really hard to to learn it it's like one of the most iconic sort of blues songs Texas blues songs and now you made me fall in love with the song again want to play it out live at the very least put it up on youtube and miss because it is so fun to improvise and when you lose yourself in the song it truly is a blue song you can have fun with it I hope you do do that throw on a Stevie Ray Vaughn regardless I want you to play it for me 100% but he's he's amazing and and you know there's so many great performers that are playing live now you know I just saw Chris Stapleton show he's an amazing country artist he's too good he's so good Lucas Nelson's one of my favorite to see live and there's so many incredible songwriters and musicians that are out there touring today.
翻译成中文：
这太有趣了，你说你最喜欢的Stevie（雷·沃恩）的一首歌是《Texas Flood》。而我一直想学会弹这首歌，这是我人生梦想的一部分，这让你让我感到非常高兴。对我来说，《Texas Flood》是我学习的第一个吉他独奏，因为对我来说，这个独奏曾经是难以企及的。所以我下了很大功夫去学它，因为它是最具代表性的德州布鲁斯歌曲之一。你让我重新爱上了这首歌，至少我想要现场表演它，或者至少把它上传到YouTube，因为即兴演奏这首歌真的很有趣，沉浸在歌曲中时，你会发现它真的是一首可以让人尽情享受的布鲁斯歌曲。
我希望你真的能做到，尽情享受Stevie Ray Vaughn的音乐。我百分之百希望你能为我演奏这首歌。他真的很了不起。现在有很多优秀的音乐人在现场表演，我刚刚看了Chris Stapleton的演出，他是一位了不起的乡村音乐艺人，他太优秀了。此外，Luke Nelson是我最喜欢看现场表演的艺人之一。如今有很多令人难以置信的词曲作者和音乐家正在巡演。
But I think you also you can go online and watch some of these old performances like Django Reinhardt was the first because I torture myself was the first song I learned to play on the guitar and it took me like nine months to a year it was I mean I should have chosen a different song but UA2 Monomore his one of his songs was and it was like finger style and I was just going through and and grinding it out and and that's kind of how I started to learn to play by playing that song but to see these old videos of him playing you know without all his fingers and and and the skill and the dexterity one of my favorite live performances is actually who really influenced Adele as a Rietha Franklin and she did this she did a version of amazing grace have you ever seen this video no I cry look up it was in LA it was like the temple missionary Baptist church talk about stripped down she's literally it I mean just listen to this oh so much you can do one note and you could just kill it the pain the soulfulness the spirit you feel like in her when you watch this that's true Adele carries some of that spirit also right yeah yeah and you can take away all the instruments with the delin just have that voice and it's so commanding and it's so um mate anyway you watch this and you see like the arc of also the experience of the people in the choir and them starting to join in and it's anyway it's it's amazing I love watching a queen like for a free to mercury queen performances.
我认为你也可以在线上找到一些老录像来看，比如像Django Reinhardt的表演。Django Reinhardt是我第一次学会弹奏的吉他曲目的表演者，因为我折磨自己学习的第一个曲子用了大概九个月到一年的时间。我本应该选择其他的曲子但当时学习的就是他的一首叫《Mon Amour》的指弹风格的歌。我就是这样学会弹吉他，通过不断练习和坚持。不过看到这些他演奏的旧视频，即使不是所有手指都能动，他的技巧和灵活性依旧令人惊叹。
我最喜欢的一次现场演出其实是对阿黛尔影响很大的艾瑞莎·富兰克林的表演。她曾在洛杉矶的圣殿传教浸信会教堂演唱过《Amazing Grace》，这个视频你看过吗？每次我看都会流泪。这个演出非常质朴，只需要她一个音符，就能触动心灵，充满了痛苦、灵魂和精神的力量。观众能在她的表演中感受到这些，而阿黛尔也继承了一部分这样的灵魂。
你可以去掉所有的乐器，只留阿黛尔的声音，那声音依然非常有力量，非常震撼。观看这个演出时，你能感受到合唱团中人的经历和他们慢慢加入其中的过程，真的很了不起。我也很喜欢看像弗雷迪·默丘里那样的皇后乐队的演出。
Yeah like in terms of vocals and just like great stage presence that live eight performances like considered one of the best of all I watch that so many times he's so cool we pull up that for a second go to that part where where he's saying radio gaga and they're all um mimicking in his arm it's so cool look at that so good so good so that's an example of a person that was born to be on stage so good well we were talking surfing we were talking to you did sue I think live music is one of those kind of rare moments where you can really be present um where something about the anticipation of choosing what show you're going to go to and then waiting for the date to come and normally it happens in the context of community you go with friends and um and then allowing yourself to sort of fall into it is is incredible.
是的，就声音和舞台表现力而言，那次现场的Live Aid演出被认为是最棒的之一，我看过好多次，他真的很酷。我们能回放一下吗？尤其是他唱《Radio Ga Ga》的部分，观众跟着他一起模仿手势，真的很棒，太好了。这就是一个天生适合站在舞台上的人的例子，太棒了。之前我们聊到了冲浪和你做的那些事情，我觉得现场音乐是一种极其少见的时刻，让人能真正活在当下。选择要去看的演出，然后期待这一天的到来，通常是和朋友们一起，带着一种社区感受，然后完全沉浸其中，真是难以置信的体验。
So you've been training jiu jitsu trying um I mean I've seen you do jiu jitsu you extremely you're you're you're very athletic you know you know how to use your body to commit violence maybe there's better ways of phrasing that but anyway uh in a skill that's been honed over I mean um what do you like about jiu jitsu well first of all I love the way I came to it it was my daughter um I think I told you this story is she's at 11 she told me that she wanted to learn self defense and um and she wanted to learn how to protect herself which I just as a mom. I was so proud about because at 11 I was not thinking about defending myself you know I I loved that she had sort of that desire and awareness um so I I called some friends actually a mutual friend of ours and asked around for for people who I could work with in Miami and they recommended the valentay brother studio and um you've met all three of them now they're these remarkable human beings and they've been so wonderful for our family.
所以你一直在练习柔术，对吧？我见过你练柔术，你真的非常有运动天赋，你知道如何运用自己的身体来进行"暴力"，虽然可能有更好的表达方式。无论如何，这是一个经过磨练的技能。你喜欢柔术的什么呢？首先，我很喜欢我接触柔术的方式，是因为我的女儿。我可能告诉过你这个故事，她在11岁的时候告诉我，她想学习自卫，她希望学习如何保护自己。作为一个妈妈，我为此感到非常自豪，因为在11岁的时候，我自己并没有考虑过要保护自己。我很喜欢她有这样的愿望和意识。于是，我联系了一些朋友，事实上，是我们共同的朋友，询问在迈阿密可以跟谁学习，他们推荐了Valente兄弟工作室。现在你也见过他们三个人了，他们真是令人敬佩的人，对我们的家庭也非常友好。
I mean first starting with arabela I used to take her and then she'd kind of encourage me and she'd sort of pull me into it and I started doing it with her and then um Joseph and Theo saw us doing it they wanted to start doing it so now they joins and um then Jared joins and now we're we're all doing jiu jitsu and for me there's something really empowering knowing that I have some basic skills um to defend myself I think it's something as humans we've kind of gotten away from you look at any other animal and you know even the giraffe they'll use their neck the lion the tiger every species and then there's us you know who most of us don't and I didn't know how to protect myself and I think that it it gives you a sense of confidence and also gives you kind of a sense of calm you know knowing how to deescalate rather than an escalate a situation.
起初是和Arabela一起，她常带我去，并鼓励我参与。我开始和她一起练习，后来Joseph和Theo看到我们在练，他们也想加入。现在他们也加入了，接着Jared也加入了。现在我们都在练习巴西柔术。对我来说，知道自己拥有一些基本的自卫技能是一种很有力量感的事情。我觉得在现代社会中，很多人忽视了这些技能。看看其他动物，长颈鹿会用自己的脖子，狮子和老虎有自己的防卫方式，而我们大多数人却不知道如何保护自己。我以前也不懂得如何保护自己，但我认为掌握这些技能能带给你信心，同时还能让你在面对冲突时更冷静，因为你知道如何化解不必要的冲突，而不是使情况升级。
I also think as part of the training you um you develop more natural awareness when when you're out and about and I feel like especially you know everyone's you get on an elevator and like the first thing people do is pick up their phone you're walking down the street their people are getting hit by cars because they're walking into traffic I think as you start to get this training you become much more aware of the broader context of what's happening around you which is which is really healthy and good as well but it's been beautiful they actually the Valenti brothers they have this seven five three code that was developed with some of the sort of samurai principles in mind and all of my kids have memorized it and they'll talk to me about it at the oh he's eight years old he'll he'll able to recite all fifteen so you know benevolence and and fitness and nutrition and flow and awareness and balance and it's an unbelievable thing and they'll actually integrate it into conversations where they'll talk about something that happened yeah rectitude courage benevolence respect honesty honor loyalty.
我也认为，在训练过程中，你会逐渐培养出一种更自然的觉察力，尤其是在外出时。我感觉，大家乘电梯时，第一件事就是拿出手机，你走在街上，人们因为低头走路而被车撞。当你接受这种训练时，你会变得更加注意周围的环境，这样做对身心健康非常有益。
Valenti兄弟开发了一个名为七五三的代码，灵感来自一些武士的原则。我的孩子们都已经背下来，并会与我分享。其中一个孩子只有八岁，就能熟背这些原则，如仁爱、健身、营养、流动、觉察和平衡等。这确实很了不起，他们还会在对话中把这些原则融入进去，比如讨论某件事情时，会提到正直、勇气、仁慈、尊重、诚实、荣誉和忠诚。
So this is not about judicisous techniques or fighting techniques is this bought away of life about the way you interact with the world with other people exercise nutrition rest hygiene positivity that's more on the physical side of things awareness balance and flow it's the mind the body the soul effectively is how they break it out and and the kids can only advance and get their stripes if they really internalize this they give examples of each of them and and my own kids will come home from school and they'll tell me examples of how things happen that were inaligned with the seven five three codes so it's it's a framework much like religion is in our house and and can be for others it's a framework to discuss things that happen in their life large and small and and it's been beautiful.
这不仅仅是关于审慎的技巧或战斗技巧，而是一种生活方式，是关于你如何与世界、与他人进行互动，包括锻炼、营养、休息、卫生和积极态度等，更偏向于身体方面的内容，但同时也涉及到意识、平衡和流动。这实际上是对心灵、身体和灵魂的一种解读。孩子们只有真正内化了这些理念，才能够继续进步并获得认可。他们会给出每个方面的例子，我自己的孩子们回家后也会和我分享一些与七五三准则相关的事例。所以，这就是一个框架，就像我们家中的宗教信仰一样，也可以是其他家庭的指导原则。这个框架帮助我们讨论生活中每一件大大小小的事情，这一切都很美好。
So so I do think that like body mind connection is super strong and and she did so so there's many things I love about the valentine brothers but one of them is the how rooted it is in philosophy in history of martial arts in general you know a lot of places you'll practice the sport of it maybe there are of it but to recognize the history yeah and what it means to be a martial artist broadly on and off the mat that's really great and the other thing is great is they also don't forget the self defense route to actual fighting routes so it's not just the sport it's a way to defend yourself on the street in all situations and that gives you a confidence in just like you said an awareness about your body and awareness about others.
我确实认为身体与心灵的联系非常强大，而她确实体现了这一点。我喜欢瓦伦丁兄弟的很多方面，其中之一就是他们的哲学根基，以及对武术历史的重视。很多地方可能只关注武术的运动和艺术层面，但在这里，他们注重认识武术的历史，以及成为一名武术家在场上和场下的意义，这非常棒。此外，他们还没有忘记武术的自卫功能和实战根源。所以这不仅仅是一种运动，更是一种在各种情况下保护自己的方式。这种学习不仅带来了信心，还提高了对身体和周围环境的意识。
Yeah it is you know sadly we forget but there's a it's a world full of violence or the capacity for violence so it's good to have an awareness of that and a confidence how to essentially avoid it 100 percent I I've seen it with all of my kids they've been and myself how much they've benefited from it but that self defense component and the philosophical elements of you know they Pedro will often tell them about like Wu Wei and sort of soft resistance and and some of these sort of more eastern philosophies. that they get exposed to through through their practice there that are sort of non-resistance that that are beautiful and hard concepts to internalize as an adult but but especially you know when you're 12 10 and and eight respectively so it's it's and it's been an amazing experience for us all.
是的，你知道，不幸的是我们常常忘记这个世界充满了暴力或有暴力的潜在能力，所以对这种情况保持清醒的认识以及拥有如何完全避免暴力的自信是好事。我和我的孩子们都从中受益良多。除了自卫的成分，他们还接触到了像"无为"这样的一些哲学理念，这些都源自东方哲学，是一种温和的抵抗方式。这些概念很美，但对成年人来说很难内化，尤其是当你只有12岁、10岁和8岁时。但对我们所有人来说，这都是一次令人惊叹的体验。
I love people like Pedro because he's like finding books they're like in Japanese and translating to figure out like the details of a particular history like he's a he's like an ultra scholar of martial arts and I love that I love when people give everything every part of themselves to the thing they're practicing you know people have been fighting each other for a very long time and I love from the Colosseum on you can't fake anything you can't lie about anything yeah it's it's truly honest you're there and you either win or lose and simple and that's like it's also humbling that yeah the reality of that is humbling and oftentimes in life things are not that simple not that black and white so it's nice to have that sometimes that's that's the biggest thing I gained from Jiu Jitsu is getting my in my ass kicked which is the humbling and it's nice to just get humbled in a very clear way sports in general a great for that.
我喜欢像Pedro这样的人，因为他就像是在寻找日文书籍并努力翻译，以弄清某个历史的细节。他就像是一位武术的超级学者，而我喜欢这一点。我喜欢当人们全心投入到他们所练习的事情中。你知道，人类已经相互搏斗了很长时间，从竞技场开始，你不能作假，也不能撒谎，一切都是真实的。你在那里，要么赢，要么输，就是这么简单。这种现实让人感到谦卑，而生活中很多事情并不是那么简单，不是那么非黑即白。有时候，这种清晰让人感到愉悦。练习柔术带给我最大的收获就是被打败，这让我学会了谦卑。在一种非常明确的方式中被谦卑是一件好事，体育运动在这一点上非常有益。
I think surfing probably I can imagine yeah just you know yeah face planting not being able to stay on the board it's humbling and the power of the wave is humbling so just like your mom you're an adventure are there your your bucket list is probably like 120 pages but is there things like just pop to mind that you're like thinking about especially in the near future just saying well I hope it always is long you know I hope I've never like exhausted exploring all the things I'm curious about I always tell my kids whenever they say you know mom I'm bored only boring people get bored like there's too much to learn there's too much to learn so I've got a long one.
我想象冲浪的时候，可能会一下子脸朝下栽进水里，或者无法在冲浪板上保持平衡。这种经历让人觉得谦卑，波浪的力量让人感到渺小。就像你的妈妈，你是个冒险家，你的愿望清单可能有120页那么长。不过有没有一些事情是你特别想在近期实现的呢？我总希望这个清单一直很长，希望我永远不会耗尽那些我感兴趣的事物。我总是告诉我的孩子们，当他们说“妈妈，我好无聊”时，我会说：只有无聊的人才会感到无聊，因为世界上有太多东西可以学习。所以我的清单很长。
I you know I think obviously there are some like immediate tactical you know interesting things that I'm doing I'm incubating a bunch of businesses I'm investing in a bunch of companies that hopefully I'll always can continue to do that some of the fun things I'm doing in real estate now so those are all on the list of things I'm passionate and excited about yeah continuing to explore and learn but in terms of the like the the ones or more pure sort of adventure or hobby I think I'd like to climb out Kilimanjaro actually I know I would and I the only thing keeping me from doing it in the short term is I feel like it'd be such a great experience to do with my kids and I'd love to have that experience with them.
我认为，显然我正在从事一些即刻和战术层面上有趣的事情。我正在孵化一批新业务，投资于一些公司，希望我能一直持续这样做。我现在在房地产领域也有一些有趣的项目，这些都是我充满热情和期待的事情。我会不断探索和学习。
至于那些更纯粹的探险或爱好，我其实很想攀登乞力马扎罗山。我确信我想这么做。当前唯一阻碍我短期内去实现这个愿望的原因是，我觉得如果能和我的孩子们一起去，那将是一次很棒的经历，我很希望与他们一同体验。
I also told at her Bella we were talking about this archery competition that happens in Mongolia and she loves horseback riding so I'm like I feel like that would be an amazing thing to experience together I want to get barreled by a wave and and learn how to play Texas flood I want to see the northern lights like I want to go and experience that I feel like that would be really beautiful I want to get my black belt like you have nice I asked you know how long did it take but so I want to get my black belt and you did see that's like that's going to be a longer term goal but within the next decade yeah a lot of things you know I'd love to go to space I thought not just space I think I'd love to go to the moon like step on the moon yeah or float you know in close proximity like that famous photo.
我也告诉Bella我们在谈论一个在蒙古举办的射箭比赛，她非常喜欢骑马，所以我觉得这将会是一次很棒的共同体验。我想要在大浪中冲浪，并学会演奏《Texas Flood》。我想去看北极光，我觉得那将是非常美丽的事情。我想要和你一样获得黑带，我问过你用了多长时间，但我知道这将是一个需要更长时间的目标，大约在未来十年内实现。有很多事情，我甚至想去太空，不仅仅是太空，我想去月球，在月球上走一走，或者像那张著名的照片一样在近距离漂浮。
Yeah just you and uh the space suit I feel like Mars is at this point in my life so well the moon's like four days feels more more manageable I don't know but the sunset on Mars is blue it's the opposite color I hear it's beautiful it might be worth it I don't know you negotiate with you yeah let me know how good let me know I guess I think actually just even go to space where you can look back on earth yeah I think that just to see this little pale blue dot pale blue dot just all the stuff that ever happened in human civilization is on that and to be able to look at look at it yeah it's just being awe now.
好的，就你和宇航服。对于我目前的人生阶段来说，我觉得火星有点遥远。相较之下，月球只需大约四天到达，感觉更容易实现。不过，我听说火星的日落是蓝色的，与地球的颜色相反，据说非常美丽，也许值得一试。我不知道，你自己考虑一下吧，如果去的话，告诉我感觉如何。其实，我想仅仅是去太空，从那里回眸地球，就已经很棒了。就看到那颗淡蓝色的小点，所有人类文明的故事都发生在上面，能够这样看着它，真的让人心生敬畏。
I think that's the thing that will go away. I think being interplanetary, my hope is that that heightens for us how rare it is what we have, like how precious the earth is. Um, I hope that it has that effect. Uh, because I, you know, I think there's a big component to interplanetary travel that kind of taps into this kind of manifest destiny inclination, like the human desire to conquer territory and expand um, the footprint of civilization. That sometimes feels much more rooted in like dominance and conquest than curiosity, wonder and um, and obviously I think there's, you know, maybe an existential imperative for it at some point or a strategic or security one.
我认为这将逐渐消失。我希望星际旅行能够让我们意识到地球是多么稀有和珍贵。我希望这能带来这样的影响。因为我觉得星际旅行中有一部分是源于人类的“天命观”，即征服领土、拓展文明足迹的欲望。有时候，这种欲望更多地与统治和征服有关，而不是好奇、惊奇。当然，也许在某个时刻，星际旅行会出于生存的需要或战略安全的原因而变得必要。
But um, I hope that what feels inevitable at this moment, I mean you know, Elon Musk and what he's doing with SpaceX and Jeff Bezos and others, it feels like it's not an if, it's a when at this point. I hope it also underscores like the need to protect what we have here. Yeah, and it's, I hope it's the curiosity that drives that exploration and I hope the exploration will give us a deeper appreciation of the thing we have back home and then earth will always be home and it's a home that we protect and celebrate.
但是，我希望在这个时刻看起来不可避免的事情，比如说，像埃隆·马斯克在做的SpaceX项目，以及杰夫·贝索斯和其他人的努力，看起来已经不是“是否会发生”，而是“何时会发生”的问题。我希望这也能强调保护我们现有资源的重要性。我还希望，是好奇心推动了这些探索，而这些探索会让我们更深刻地欣赏我们背后的这个星球——地球，地球永远是我们的家，是我们要保护和珍惜的家园。
What uh, gives you hope about the future of this thing we have going on human civilization, the whole thing? I think I feel a lot of hope when I'm in nature. I feel a lot of hope when I am experiencing people who are good and honest and pure and true and passionate. And that's not an uncommon experience, so those experiences give me hope. Yeah, other humans, we're pretty cool. I love humanity, we're awesome, you know, not always, but um, but we're pretty good species. Yeah, for the most part, I'm the whole, we do all right.
是什么让你对人类文明的未来感到希望呢？我觉得，当我置身于大自然中时，我感到很有希望。当我遇到那些善良、诚实、纯真、真实和有热情的人时，我也感受到了希望。而这样的经历并不少见，所以这些经历让我充满希望。是啊，其他人类都很不错。我爱人类，我们很棒，你知道吗，虽然不总是这样，但嗯，大多数时候，我们都是一个很不错的物种。总体来说，我们做得还可以。
We do all right, we create some beautiful stuff and uh, I hope we keep creating and I hope you keep creating. You have already done a lot of amazing things, built a lot of amazing things, uh, and I hope you keep building and creating and uh, doing a lot of beautiful things in this world. Ivanka, thank you so much for talking today. Thank you, Lex, thanks for listening to this conversation with Ivanka Trump.
我们做得不错，创造了一些美好的事物，我希望我们能继续创造，也希望你能继续创造。你已经完成了许多了不起的事情，建造了很多惊人的东西，我希望你能继续构建、创造，并为这个世界带来更多美好的事物。伊万卡，非常感谢你今天的谈话。谢谢你，莱克斯，谢谢你倾听这次与伊万卡·特朗普的对话。
To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description, and now let me leave you with some words from Marcus Aurelius: dwell on the beauty of life, watch the stars, and see yourself running with them. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.
要支持这个播客，请查看描述中的赞助商。现在，让我用马库斯·奥勒留的一段话来结束：沉思生活之美，仰望星空，想象自己与星星一同奔跑。感谢您的收听，希望下次再见。