Face To Face | Carl Gustav Jung (1959) HQ
发布时间 2017-10-10 23:51:35 来源
Switzerland. Karl Gustav Jung. Born in 1875. With Freud, one of the founding fathers of modern psychology. Still working at 84, he is the most honored living psychiatrist and history will record him as one of the greatest physicians of all time. Elders, two attending doctoral studies. Services Forces in young home. It's just about 50 years. Do you live here now just with your secretaries and your English housekeeper? Yes. No children or grandchildren with you. Well, no, they don't live here, but they have plenty of them in their surroundings. Do they come to see you often? Oh, yes. How many grandchildren have you? All 19. And great grandchildren? I think eight. And I suppose one is on the way. And do you enjoy having them? Well, of course, it's nice to feel such a living crowd or out of themselves. Are they afraid of you, do you think? Ah, I don't think so if we would know my grandchildren or the wooden things or what they steal by things. Even my hat belongs to me, they stole the other day.
瑞士，卡尔·古斯塔夫·荣格，1875年出生。他与弗洛伊德一起，是现代心理学的创始人之一。到84岁时，他依然在工作，是当代最受尊敬的精神病学家之一，历史将他记录为有史以来最伟大的医生之一。他有两个正在攻读博士学位的长辈，以及年轻时的服务力量。这已经差不多有50年了。现在你和你的秘书以及英国管家住在这里吗？是的。没有子女或孙辈和你住在一起吗？嗯，是的，他们不住这里，但他们周围有很多。那他们经常来看你吗？哦，是的。你有多少个孙子孙女？一共有19个。曾孙呢？好像有8个。我猜还有一个在路上。你喜欢他们来吗？当然，感觉生活气息浓郁是件好事。他们会怕你吗？啊，我不这么认为。如果他们知道我的孙子孙女们或者那些木质的东西被偷走的事情，就连我的帽子也是他们前几天偷走的。
Now, can I take you back to your own childhood? Do you remember the occasion when you first felt consciousness of your own individual self? That was in my 11th year. There I suddenly, on my way to school, I stepped out of a mist. It was just as if I had been in a mist, walking in a mist, and I stepped out of it, and the new I am. I am what I am. And then I thought, but what have I been before? And then I found that I was, that I had been in a mist, not knowing to differentiate myself from things. I was just one thing about among many things. Now, was that associated with any particular episode in your life, or was it just a normal function of adolescence? Well, that's difficult to say. As far as I can remember, nothing had happened before. That would explain this sudden coming to consciousness.
现在，我可以带您回忆一下您自己的童年吗？您是否记得第一次意识到自己独特存在的那个时刻？我是在11岁的时候，那天我在去学校的路上，突然像是走出了迷雾。就好像一直以来我都身处迷雾之中，行走在迷雾里，然后我走了出来，然后有了新的自我意识。我是我自己。然后我想，但之前的我是什么？然后我发现，我以前就像在迷雾中，不知道如何将自己和其他事物区分开。我只是众多事物中的一个。那这与您生活中的某个特定事件有关吗？还是只是青春期的正常现象呢？嗯，这很难说。据我记得，在此之前没有发生过什么特别的事情来解释这种突然的自我意识觉醒。
You hadn't, for instance, been quarreling with your parents or anything. No. What memories have you of your parents? Were they strict and outfashioned in the way they brought you up? Oh, you know, they belong to the later parts of the Middle Ages. And my father was a person in the country. And you can imagine what people were. Then, you know, in the 70s of the past century, they had the convictions in which people have lived since 1,000, 800 years. How did he try to impress these convictions on you? Did he punish you, for instance? Oh, no, no. No, no. He was very liberal. And he was most tolerant, most understanding. Which did you get on with more intimately? Your father or your mother? That's difficult to say. In, of course, one is always more intimate with the mother. But when it comes to the personal feeling, I had a better relation to my father who was predictable. Then with my mother, who was, to me, a very problem, a problem at little something.
你没有和父母吵架或类似的事情，对吧？没有。那你对父母有什么记忆呢？他们在教育你的方式上是否严格或过时？哦，你知道的，他们就像中世纪末期的人。而且我父亲是乡下人，你可以想象那时的人怎样。然后，在上个世纪七十年代，他们持有的信念可以追溯到一千八百年前的生活方式。那么他是如何试图将这些信念传授给你的呢？他比如说会惩罚你吗？哦，不，不，不，他非常开明，非常宽容和理解。你和父亲还是母亲关系更亲密呢？这个很难说。当然，人往往和母亲更亲密，但在个人感情上，我和父亲的关系更好，因为他很可预见。相比之下，母亲对我来说是一个很大的问题，有点麻烦。
So, at any rate, fear was not an element in your relation with your father. Not at all. Did you accept him as being infallible in his judgments? Oh, no, I knew he was very valuable. How old were you when you knew that? I'll have wish he. The. Perhaps 11 or 12 years old. He was hanging together with the fact that I was, that I knew I was. And from then on, I saw that my father is different. Yes. So, the moment of self-revelation was closely connected with realizing the fallibility of your parents. Yes, Uncle Saisou. Now, what about. And I realized that I had fear of my mother, but not during the day. There she was quite known to me unpredictable, but in the night, I had fear of my mother. And can you remember why? Can you remember what that was? I have a little slightest idea why, man.
所以，无论如何，恐惧并不是你和父亲关系中的一个因素。完全不是。你是否认为他的判断是绝对正确的呢？哦，不，我知道他是很有价值的。你几岁时知道这一点的？大概十一二岁的时候吧。我意识到自己与他的不同，从那时起，我就看到我的父亲与众不同。是的。那么，领悟自我的那一刻与意识到父母并非完美无缺密切相关。是的，赛索叔叔。那么，关于……我意识到自己害怕母亲，但这种恐惧并不是在白天。在白天，她对我来说虽然多变，但并不可怕。可是在晚上，我对母亲感到恐惧。你能记得为什么吗？你能记得那是什么原因吗？我一点也不知道原因，老兄。
What about your school days now? Were you happy at school? As a school? In the beginning of us, very happy to have companions, because before I had been very lonely. We lived in the country, and I had to. You know, brother and sister. My sister was born very much later when it was nine years old. And so I was used to be alone, but I missed it. I missed company. And in school, it was wonderful to have company. But soon, you know, in a country school, naturally, I was far ahead. And then I began to be bored. What sort of religious upbringing did your father give you? We were Swiss-reformed. And did he make you attend church regularly? Oh, well, that was quite natural. Everybody went to church for something. And did you believe in God? Oh, yes. Do you now believe in God? Now, difficult to answer, I know. I don't need to believe. I know.
你现在的求学时光怎么样？你在学校时快乐吗？作为一个学校，感觉如何？起初，我非常开心有同学，因为在那之前我非常孤单。我们住在乡下，我必须适应这种生活。你知道，我有兄弟姐妹。我妹妹是在我九岁的时候才出生的，所以之前我习惯了一个人，但我还是很渴望有伙伴。在学校里，有同学一起真是太好了。但很快，你知道，在乡村学校，我自然是进度较快的学生，然后我开始觉得无聊了。你父亲是怎么教导你宗教信仰的？我们是瑞士改教派。他有让你经常去教堂吗？哦，这很自然，大家都去教堂。你相信上帝吗？哦，是的。你现在相信上帝吗？这个问题很难回答。我不需要相信，我知道。
Well, now, turning to the next staging point in your life, what made you decide to become a doctor? That was in the first place a merely opportunistic choice. I really, originally, I wanted to be an archaeologist at Syriology, Egyptology, or something of the sort. I had no money. The study was too expensive. So my second love then belonged to nature, particularly theology. And then when I began my studies, I inscribed in the so-called philosophical faculty tool. That means natural sciences. But then I soon saw that it was my career that was before me would make a school more so of me. I never thought I had any chance to get any further because we had no money at all.
好的，现在，谈到你人生的下一个阶段，是什么促使你决定成为一名医生？起初，这只是一个机会主义的选择。其实，最开始我想成为一名考古学家，研究叙利亚学、埃及学或类似的领域，但我没有足够的钱，学费太贵了。于是，我的第二个热爱转向了大自然，尤其是神学。当我开始学习时，我注册了所谓的哲学院工具，那就是自然科学。但很快我就意识到，我面前的这条职业道路会更多地让我成为一名教师。我从来没有想过自己有机会做到更高，因为我们家里完全没有钱。
And then I saw that didn't suit my expectations. You know, I didn't want to become a schoolman. Teaching was not just what I was looking for. And so I remembered that my guide for what has been a doctor. And I knew that when I was studying medicine, I had a chance to study natural science. And to become a doctor and a doctor can develop. You see, he can have a practice. He can choose his scientific interests more or less. At all events, I would have more chance than being a schoolmaster, also the idea of doing something useful with human beings appeal to me.
然后我发现那并不符合我的期望。你知道，我并不想成为一名教师。教学并不是我所追求的。所以我想起了我的引导者，一个医生。我知道，当我学习医学时，我有机会研究自然科学。成为一名医生可以有很多发展的可能。你看，医生可以有自己的诊所，他可以在一定程度上选择自己的科研兴趣。不管怎么样，医生的机会要比做老师多，而且能够对人类做些有用的事情，让我很有吸引力。
And did you, when you decided to become a doctor, have difficulty in getting the training at school and in passing the exams? I particularly had a difficulty with certain teachers. That didn't believe that I could write these diseases. I remember long case where the teacher had the custom to be happy to discuss the papers written by the pupils. And he took the best first. And he went through the whole number of pupils. And I didn't appear. And I was badly troubled over it. You know, I thought whether it is possible that Jesus can be that bad.
当您决定成为医生时，是否在学校接受培训和通过考试方面遇到了困难？我特别在某些老师那里遇到了困难。他们不相信我能写下这些疾病。我记得一次长时间的案例，老师习惯于高兴地讨论学生写的文章。他通常会先看最好的，然后依次审阅所有学生的文章。但始终没有叫到我，这让我感到非常不安。我甚至怀疑耶稣可能会那么差劲吗？
And when he had finished, he said, there is still one paper left over. And that is the one by Jung. That would be by far the best paper if it hadn't been copied. He has just copied it somewhere. Stolen, you are a thief Jung. And if I knew where you have stolen it, I would fling you out of school. And I would mad and say that the one Jesus where I have worked the most because the theme was interesting in contrast to the other themes, which are not at all interesting to me.
翻译如下：
当他完成后，他说，还有一篇文章没有评阅，那就是荣格的。要不是因为抄袭，这篇文章将会是最好的。他只是从某处抄来的。偷窃，荣格，你是个小偷。如果我知道你是从哪里偷的，我就会把你赶出学校。我会很生气，因为我对这个主题花了最多心思研究，因为这个主题对我来说很有趣，相比之下，其他主题对我来说完全没有兴趣。
And then he said, you are a liar. And if you can prove that you have stolen that thing somewhere, then you get out of school. Now that was a very serious thing to me, because what else then, you see? And I hated that fellow. And that was the only man I could have killed, you know. If I had met him once at a dark corner, I would have shown him something of what I could do. Did you often have violent thoughts about people when you were young? No, not exactly. Only when they got mad.
然后他说，你是个骗子。如果你能证明你确实在某个地方偷了那样东西，那你就得离开学校。对我来说，这是一件非常严重的事情，因为你看，还有什么比这更糟糕的呢？而且我很恨那个家伙，那是我唯一想杀掉的人。你知道吗，如果我曾在一个黑暗的角落遇到他，我会让他看到我的厉害。你年轻时经常对别人有暴力的想法吗？不，不完全是。只有当他们让我生气的时候才会这样。
Well, then they beat him up. And did you often get mad? Not so often, but then for good. You were very strong and big, I imagine. Yes, I was pretty strong. And you know, reared in the country with those basins, voices, rough kind of life. I would have been capable of violence. I know. I was a bit afraid of it. So I rather tried to avoid the critical situations because I didn't trust myself once. I was attacked by about seven boys. And I got mad.
嗯，然后他们就揍了他。那你经常生气吗？不太经常，但一旦生气就会很严重。我想你当时一定长得又强壮又高大。是的，我确实挺强壮的。你知道，我是在乡村长大的，那种环境粗犷、生活艰辛。我当时可能会有暴力倾向。我清楚这一点，所以我有点害怕这种情况。为了避免陷入关键的局面，我尽量躲开，有一次大概被七个男孩攻击，我就怒了。
And I took one and just swung him round with his legs, you know. And beat down four of them. And then there was a satisfied. And were there any consequences from that after all you would say, yes. From then on, I was always, always suspected that I was at the bottom of every trouble. I was not. But they were afraid. And I was never attacked again. Well, now, when the time came that you qualified as a doctor, what made you decide to specialize in being an alienist?
我抓住其中一个人，抓住他的腿挥舞起来，你知道的，用他打倒了四个人。然后我感到很满意。那么，这之后有任何后果吗？可以说，有的。从那时起，我总是被怀疑是所有麻烦的根源。其实我不是，但他们害怕我，因此再也没有人攻击我。好吧，那么，当你成为一名合格的医生时，是什么让你决定专注于精神病学呢？
Yeah, that is rather an interesting point. Well, now, I had finished my studies practically. And when I didn't know what I really wanted to do, I had a big chance to follow one of my professors. He was called to a new position in Munich. And he wanted me as his assistant. And then, but then in that moment, I studied for my final examination. I came across the textbook, a textbook of the subcigaratory. Up to then, I saw nothing about it, because our professors then wasn't particularly interesting.
是的，那确实是一个相当有趣的观点。嗯，当时，我的学业基本完成了。当我还不知道自己真正想做什么时，我有一个很好的机会可以跟随我的一位教授。他被邀请到慕尼黑担任一个新职位，并希望我能成为他的助理。然而，就在那时，我在为期末考试复习时，接触到了一本关于潜意识的教科书。在那之前，我对这方面一无所知，因为我们的教授对这个题目并不是特别感兴趣。
And I only read the introduction to that book, where certain things were said about the accuracy as a malagreishment of personality. That hit the nail on the head. In that moment, I saw I must become an alienist. My heart was something wildly in that moment. And when I told my professor, I wouldn't follow him. I would study psychiatry. He couldn't understand it. No, my friends, because it was the case, the psychiatry was nothing at all.
我只读了那本书的介绍部分，其中提到准确性是对人格的一种矮化。这句话一语中的。在那一刻，我意识到我必须成为一名精神病学家。我的心在那一刻激动不已。当我告诉我的教授我不会跟随他，而是会学习精神病学时，他难以理解。不，我的朋友们，因为在当时，精神病学几乎被视为一无是处。
But I saw one D, one great chance to unite certain contrasting things in myself, namely, beside natural science, I always had studied history of philosophy and such subjects. There was first, as if suddenly two streams were joining. And how long was it after you took that decision that you first came in contact with Freud? Oh, you know, that was at the end of my studies. And then it took quite a while until I met Freud. You see, I finished my studies in 1900. And I met Freud. Only very much later, by I read. Well, in 1900, I already read history with the interpretation and the Breuer-Freud studies about hysteria. But that was merely literary, you know. And then in 1977, I became acquainted with him personally.
我看到一个机会，一个结合自己内心矛盾特质的机会，那就是除了自然科学，我一直也在学习哲学史之类的学科。就好像两个不同的溪流突然汇合在一起。那么，在你做出这个决定后，过了多久才接触到弗洛伊德呢？哦，你知道，那是在我学业结束的时候。直到遇见弗洛伊德，过了相当长的一段时间。你看，我在1900年结束学业，那时候已经阅读过包含历史解释及布雷尔-弗洛伊德有关歇斯底里的研究。不过，那只是一些文学阅读，直到1977年我才与他本人相识。
Would you tell me how that happened? Did you go to Vienna? Well, I'd written a book about the psychology of the men's hair pre-cocard, called Schizophrenia, then. And I sent him that book. And thus, we have acquainted. I went to Vienna for a fortnight then. And then we had in very long and penetrating conversations. And that settled it. And this long and penetrating conversation was followed by personal friendship. Oh, yes. It soon developed into a personal friendship.
你能告诉我是怎么回事吗？你去过维也纳吗？嗯，我曾经写了一本关于男性头发风格心理学的书，书名当时叫《精神分裂》。我把那本书寄给了他，于是我们就有了联系。我随后去维也纳待了两周。我们进行了非常长时间且深入的对话，这确定了我们的关系。这次长时间的深入对话之后，我们成了朋友。哦，是的。很快就发展成了一段个人友谊。
And what sort of man was Freud? Well, he was a complicated nature, even though he. I liked him very much. But I soon discovered that when he had thought something, then it was settled. Well, I was doubting all along the line. And it was impossible to discuss something really affluent. You know, he had no philosophical education, particularly because he was studying Kant. And I was steeped in it. And that was far from Freud. So from the very beginning, there was a discrepancy.
弗洛伊德是个怎样的人呢？嗯，他是一个性格复杂的人，即使如此，我还是很喜欢他。但我很快发现，一旦他认定了某件事情，那就是定论了。而我却一直在怀疑和思考。与他深入讨论某些事情几乎是不可能的。他没有哲学教育背景，尤其是因为他研究康德，而我对哲学有深入的了解。弗洛伊德在这方面与我相差甚远。所以，从一开始，我们之间就存在一定的差异。
Did you, in fact, grow apart later, partly because of the difference in temperamental approach to experiment and proof and so on? Well, of course, there is always a temperamental difference. And his approach was naturally different from mine, because his personality was different from mine, that led me into my later investigation of psychological types, with a rather definite attitudes. Some people are doing it in this way, and other people are doing it in another typical way. And there were such differences between myself and Freud, too.
你们后来是否确实因为在实验和证据等方面的性格差异而渐行渐远？当然，总是会有性格上的不同。他的方法和我的自然不同，因为我们的性格不同，这促使我后来研究心理类型，形成了比较明确的态度。有些人以某种方式进行，其他人则以另一种典型方式进行。我和弗洛伊德之间也存在这样的差异。
Do you consider that Freud's standard of proof and experimentation was less higher than your own? Well, you see, that is a never-ending evaluation. I'm not competent of. I'm not my own history, oh, my history, oh, graff. I, in better reference to certain results, I think my method has its merits. Tell me, did Freud himself ever analyze you? Oh, yes, I submitted quite a lot of my dreams to him. So did he? And he too, yes.
你是否认为弗洛伊德的证据和实验标准比你的要低？嗯，你知道，这个问题是一个无止境的评估。我没有能力回答。我不是我自己的历史，哦，我的历史，哦，涂鸦。关于某些结果，我认为我的方法有其优点。请问，弗洛伊德曾经分析过你吗？哦，是的，我向他提供了很多我的梦境。那么，他分析了吗？是的，他也分析了。
Oh, yes, yes. Do you remember now at this distance of time, what were the significant features of Freud's dreams that you needed at the time? Well, that is rather indiscreet to ask, you know, I have never such a thing as a professional secret. He's been dead these many years. I, you are, yes. But these regards are longer than life. I prefer not to talk about it.
哦，是的，是的。在这么长的时间后，你还记得弗洛伊德当时梦中的重要特征是什么吗？嗯，这个问题有点不太妥，毕竟职业秘密是不能随便谈的。他已经去世多年了。是的，你说得对。但这些秘密比生命更持久。我还是不谈这个话题吧。
Well, may I ask you something else, then, which perhaps is also indiscreet? Is it true that you have a very large number of letters which you exchanged with Freud, which are still unpublished? Yes. When are they going to be published? Well, not during my lifetime. You would have no objection to them being published after your life. Oh, no, not at all. Because they are probably of great historical importance. I don't think so.
那么，我可以问您另一个问题吗？这个问题也许也有些冒昧。据说您与弗洛伊德交换了很多信件，它们迄今未被发表，是这样吗？是的。 那么这些信件什么时候会发表呢？嗯，不会在我活着的时候发表。 您不反对它们在您去世后发表吗？哦，完全不反对。 因为它们可能具有重要的历史意义。 我不这么认为。
Then why have you not published them so far? Because they were not important to me enough. I see no particular importance in them. They are concerned with personal matters. Well partially. But I wouldn't care to publish them. Well, now, can we move on to the time when you did eventually part company with Freud? It was partly, I think, with the publication of your psychology of the unconscious. Is that correct? That is, that is, what was the real course?
那么，为什么你到现在还没有发表它们呢？因为它们对我来说不够重要。我认为它们没有特别的重要性。它们涉及个人事务。好吧，部分是这样。但我不愿意发表它们。那么，现在我们能谈谈你最终与弗洛伊德分道扬镳的那段时间吗？我想这部分是因为你发表了《无意识心理学》，对吗？那是什么真正的原因呢？
Well, now, before you, oh, I mean the final course. Because it had a long preparation. From the beginning, I had a reservoir of mental illness. I couldn't agree with quite a number of his ideas. Which one is in particular? Well, chiefly, his purely personal approach and his disregard of the historical conditions of man, who we depend largely upon our history. We are shaped through education, through the influence of the parents, which are by no means always personal. They were prejudiced or they were influenced by historical ideas or what I call dominance.
好的，现在让我给你简单翻译一下：
嗯，现在，在说到最后一个阶段之前，因为它费时很长。从一开始，我就有一种精神疾病的储备。我无法同意他不少观点。特别是哪一点呢？主要是，他完全个人化的方法，以及他对人类历史条件的无视。我们的很大程度上取决于我们的历史。我们通过教育，以及父母的影响来成型，而这些影响并不总是个人化的。它们可能带有偏见，或者被历史观念影响，或者我称之为的主导力量影响。
And that is a mostly size factor, is our culture. And we are not of today or of yesterday, we are of an immense age. Was it not partly your observation, your clinical observation of psychotic cases, which led you to differ from Freud on this? It was partially by experience with schizophrenic patients that led me to the idea of certain general historical conditions.
这在很大程度上是一个规模因素，那就是我们的文化。我们的文化既不是今天才形成的，也不是昨天才形成的，而是有着悠久的历史。这难道不部分源于你对精神病案例的观察和研究，使你在这一点上与弗洛伊德产生分歧吗？是与精神分裂患者的接触经验部分引导我提出某些普遍历史条件的想法。
Is there any one case that you can now look back on and feel that perhaps it was the turning point of your thought? Oh, yes. I made quite a number of experiences, or that sort. And I went even to Washington to study at Nigos at the psychiatric clinic there in order to find out whether they have the same type of dreams as we have. And these experience and others led me then to the hypothesis that there is an impersonal stratum in our psyche.
有没有这样一个时刻，当你回顾时，会觉得它可能是你思想的转折点？哦，是的。我经历了很多这样的事情。我甚至去了华盛顿，在那里的尼戈斯精神病诊所进行研究，以了解他们是否和我们有相同类型的梦。这些经历和其他一些经验让我提出了一个假设：我们的内心深处存在一个非个人层面。
And I can tell you, for example, we had a patient in the ward. He was quiet but completely dissociated, schizophrenic. And he was in the clinic already ward 20 years. He had come into the clinic as a matter of fact, being a young man, a little arcant, and did no particular education.
例如，我可以告诉你，我们病房里有一位病人。他很安静，但完全游离于现实，是个精神分裂症患者。他已经在这个病房待了20年了。事实上，他是年轻时被送到诊所的，当时有点傲慢，并且没有受过特别的教育。
And once I came into the ward and he was obviously excited and called to me, took me by the label of my coat and led me to the window and said, now you will see. Now look at the sun and see how it moves. You must move your head too like this. And then you will see the follows of the sun. And you know, that's the origin of the wind.
有一次我走进病房，他显得非常兴奋，叫住我，抓住我外套的领子，把我带到窗边，说：现在你看。看太阳，看它怎么移动。你也必须像这样移动你的头。然后你会看到太阳的尾随运动。你知道，这就是风的来源。
And you see how the sun moves as you move your head from one side to the other. Now of course I did that sign the throne. I thought, there you are. He is just crazy. And that case remained in my mind. And four years later, I came across a paper written by the German historian, Edith Risch, who had dealt with the so-called Mitras literature, a part of the Great Parisian Social Papyrus.
当你从一侧移动头部到另一侧时，你会看到太阳也跟着移动。当然，我当时在王座上使用这个符号。我心想，看吧，他就是疯了。这个想法一直留在我心中。四年后，我遇到了一篇由德国历史学家伊迪丝·里施撰写的论文，她研究过所谓的密特拉教文献，这部分文献是“大巴黎社会纸草文献”的一部分。
And there he produced the part of the so-called Mitras literature. Namely, he said there, after the second prayer, I will see the disc of the sun unfolds. And you will see hanging down from it the tube, the origin of the wind. And when you move thy face, then face to the reasons of the east, it will move there. And if you move your face to the reason of the west, it will follow you.
在这个地方，他创作了所谓的密特拉斯文学的一部分。他在那里说，在第二段祈祷之后，我将看到太阳的圆盘展开。你会看到从太阳上垂下来的管子，那就是风的起源。 当你转动脸庞时，若面向东方，它就会向东方移动。若面向西方，它就会跟随你。
And instantly I know, now this is it. This is the vision of my patient. But how could you be sure that your patient wasn't unconsciously recording something that somebody had told you? Oh, no. Quite out of question, because that thing was not known. It was in a magic papyrus in Paris. And it wasn't even published. It was only published four years later after I had observed it with my patient.
瞬间我明白了，这就是我病人的愿景。但是你怎么能确定你的病人没有无意中记录下别人告诉你的事情呢？哦，不，这完全不可能，因为那个信息当时是不被人知晓的。它存在于巴黎的一个魔法纸草文稿中，并且当时还没有出版。直到四年后，这个内容才被发表，而我是在那之前通过我的病人观察到的。
And this you felt proved that there was an unconscious, which was something more than personal. Oh, well, it was not a proof to me, but it was a hint. And I took the hint. Now, tell me, how did you first decide to start your work on the psychological types? Was that also as a result of some particular clinical experience?
这让你觉得证明了潜意识的存在，而且潜意识不仅仅是个人层面的东西。嗯，对我来说，这不算是一个证据，但却是一个提示。我接受了这个提示。那么，告诉我，你最初是如何决定开始关于心理类型的研究的？这也是源于某种特定的临床经验吗？
Less so, it was a very personal ancient. And namely, to do justice to the psychology of Freud, also to that of order, and to find my own bearings, that helped me to understand why Freud developed such a theory. Oh, why? Order developed his theory, his power principle. Have you concluded what psychological type you are yourself?
稍微少一些，那是一个非常个人化的古代情感。也就是说，为了公正地理解弗洛伊德的心理学，还有秩序的心理学，并找到我自己的定位，这帮助我理解了为什么弗洛伊德会发展出这样一种理论。哦，为什么？秩序也发展了它的理论和权力原则。你有没有总结出自己是什么心理类型呢？
Naturally, I have devoted the great deal of attention to that painful question. And reach the conclusion, well, the type is nothing static. It changes it in the course of life. But I most certainly was characterized by thinking, always thought, from early childhood. And I had a great deal of intuition too.
自然地，我将大量的注意力集中在那个让人痛苦的问题上。得出的结论是，类型并不是一成不变的。它会在生命过程中发生变化。但毫无疑问，从幼年起我就被思考所驱动，总是思考。同时，我也具有很强的直觉。
And I had a definite difficulty with feeling. And my relation to reality was not particularly brilliant. I was often at variance with the reality of things. Now, that gives you all the necessary data for diagnosis. During the 1930s, when you were working a lot with German patients, you did, I believe, forecast that a second world war was very likely.
我确实感到情感方面存在明显的困难。而且，我与现实的关系也不是特别好。我常常与现实有冲突。现在，这就提供了所有必要的信息来进行诊断。在20世纪30年代，当时你经常与德国患者一起工作时，我相信你曾预测第二次世界大战很可能会发生。
Well, now, looking at the world today, do you feel that the third world war is likely? I have no definite indications in that respect. But there are so many indications that one doesn't know what one sees. Is it trees or is it the wood? It's very difficult to say. Because the dreams of people's dreams contain apprehensions, you know.
那么，现在看看当今世界，你觉得第三次世界大战可能会爆发吗？在这方面我没有明确的迹象。但有太多的迹象让人不知道自己在看什么。是树，还是森林？这很难说。因为人们的梦中充满了忧虑，你懂的。
But it is very difficult to say whether they point to a war. Because that idea is a promotion in people's mind. Forbidden, you know, it has been much simpler. People didn't think of a war. And therefore, it was rather clear what the dreams meant. Nowadays, no more so.
但很难说这些是否指向战争。因为这个想法在人的心中是被放大的。你知道，以前更简单些。人们并不会想到战争。因此，过去梦的含义比较清楚。而如今，不再如此。
We are so full of apprehensions, fears that one doesn't know exactly to what it points. But one thing is sure, a great change of our psychological attitude is imminent. That is certain. Why? Because we need more psychology. We need more understanding of human nature.
我们充满了各种忧虑和恐惧，但常常不知道这些情绪意味着什么。不过，可以确定的是，我们的心理态度将会发生重大改变。这是肯定的。为什么这样说呢？因为我们需要更多的心理学知识和对人性的理解。
Because the only real danger that exists is man himself. He is the great danger. And we are pitifully unaware of it. We know nothing of man, far too little. His sight should be studied, because we are the origin of all coming evil. Well, does man do you think need to have the concept of sin and evil to live with? Is this part of our nature? Well, obviously. And of a redeemer that is an inevitable consequence. This is not a concept which will disappear as we become more rational. It's something we need to do.
因为唯一真正的危险是人类本身。他是最大的威胁。而我们对此却几乎毫无察觉。我们对人知之甚少，实在是太少了。我们应该研究人的视野，因为所有未来的邪恶都由我们而起。那么，你认为人类是否需要罪恶和邪恶的概念才能生活呢？这是否是我们天性的一部分？显然是的。而一个救赎者就是不可避免的结果。随着我们变得更加理性，这个观念不会消失。这是我们需要做的事情。
Well, I don't believe that man ever will deviate from the original pattern of his being. There will always be such ideas. For instance, if you do not directly believe in a personal redeemer as it was the case with Hitler or the hero worship in Russia, then it is an idea. It is a symbolic idea. You have written one time and another some sentences which have surprised me a little about death. Now, in particular, I remember you said that death is psychologically just as important as birth. And like it, it's an integral part of life.
我相信，人类永远不会脱离其最初的本性模式。这种观念将一直存在。例如，即使你不直接相信一个个人救世主，比如希特勒那样，或者像俄罗斯的英雄崇拜，那也是一种观念，一种象征性的观念。你曾写过一些关于死亡的句子，这让我有些惊讶。我尤其记得你说过，死亡在心理上和出生一样重要，并且和出生一样，是生命中不可或缺的一部分。
But surely, it can't be like birth if it's an end, can it? Yes, if it's an end. And there we are now quite certain about this end. Because there are these peculiar faculties of the psyche that they didn't entirely confine to space and time. You can have dreams or visions of the future. You can see your round callers and such things only ignorance denies these facts. You have quite evident that there do exist. And they have existed always.
当然，如果这是一种终结，那就不可能像出生一样，是吗？是的，如果它是终结的话。而对于这个终结，我们现在非常确定。因为心灵有一些奇特的能力，它们并不仅限于空间和时间。你可以梦见或预见未来的景象。你能看到你周围的事物，只有无知的人才会否认这些事实。很明显，这些能力确实存在，并且一直存在。
Now, these facts show that the psyche in part at least is not dependent upon these confinements. And then what? When the psyche is not under that obligation to live in time and space alone, and obviously it doesn't, then to that extent the psyche is not superior to those who are. And that means a practical continuation of life, of a sort of plychic existence beyond time and space.
这些事实表明，至少部分心理活动并不依赖于时间和空间的限制。那么然后呢？当心理不再仅仅局限于生活在时间和空间中时——显然它不是——那么在这一方面，心理并不优于那些受限于时间和空间的人。这就意味着一种实际的生活延续，也就是一种超越时间和空间的精神存在。
Do you yourself believe that death is probably the end, or do you believe that? Well, I can't say the word belief is a difficult thing for me. I don't believe. I must have a reason for certain hypothesis. Either I know a thing. And when I know it, I don't need to believe it. If I don't allow myself, for instance, to believe a thing just for the sake of believing it, I can't believe it. But when there are sufficient reasons to for certain hypothesis, I shall accept these reasons, naturally, I should say we have to reckon with the possibility of so and so.
你是否相信死亡可能就是终点，还是有其他想法？嗯，对我来说，“相信”这个词是个比较困难的事。我不轻信。我必须要有某种假设的理由。要么就是我知道某件事情，当我知道它时，我不需要再去相信。如果我不给自己仅仅为了相信而去相信某件事的理由，我是无法相信的。不过，当有足够的理由支持某种假设时，我会自然地接受这些理由。我会说，我们必须考虑到某些可能性。
Well, now you've told us that we should regard death as being a goal, and that to shrink away from it is to evade life and life purposes. What advice would you give to people in their later life to enable them to do this? When most of them must, in fact, believe that death is the end of every moment? Well, you see, you have treated many old people. And it's quite interesting to watch what they're unconscious doing with the fact that it is a parent who is written with a complete end. It disregards it. It life behaves as if it were going on.
好的，现在你告诉我们应该把死亡看作一种目标，而害怕死亡是在逃避生活和生活的目的。对于那些年纪较大的人，你有什么建议可以帮助他们做到这一点呢？因为大多数人实际上可能认为死亡意味着一切的终结。嗯，你看，你治疗过许多老年人。观察他们的无意识行为与这个最终事实（死亡的确是一个完全的终结）相应是相当有趣的。他们无视这一点，仿佛生活还在继续。
And so I think it is better for all people to live on, to look forward to the next day, as if he had to spend centuries. And then he lives properly. But when he is afraid, when he doesn't look forward, he looks back, he petrifies, he gets stiff, and he dies before his time. But when he is living on, looking forward to the great adventure that is ahead, then he lives. And that is about what the unconscious is intending to do. Of course, it's quite obvious that we are all going to die.
我觉得，对所有人来说，活下去更好，要向往明天，就像要生活好几个世纪一样。这样一来，他才能好好生活。但如果一个人害怕、不期待未来，只会回头看，他就会僵化，变得僵硬，最终提前走向死亡。而如果他在向前看、期待未来伟大的冒险，那他就是在真正地活着。这也正是潜意识的意图。当然，我们都知道，一切生物终将死亡。
And this is the set finale of everything. But nevertheless, there is something in our status to believe it apparently. But this is merely a factor, a psychological factor. It doesn't mean to me that it proves something. It is simply so. For instance, I may not know why we need sort, but prefer to eat salt too, because you feel better. And so when you think in a certain way, you may feel considerably better.
这是所有事情的最终结局。但尽管如此，我们的状况中似乎有某种东西让我们相信这一点。然而，这仅仅是一个心理因素而已。这并不意味着它证明了什么。事情就是这样而已。举个例子，我可能不知道我们为什么需要糖，但还是更喜欢吃盐，因为这样感觉会更好。同样地，当你以某种方式思考时，你也可能感觉好得多。
And I think if you think along the lines of nature, then you think properly. And this leads me to the last question that I want to ask you. As the world becomes more technically efficient, it seems increasingly necessary for people to behave communally and collectively. Now, do you think it's possible that the highest development of man may be to submerge his own individuality in a kind of collective consciousness? That's hard and possible. I think there will be a reaction.
我认为，如果你按照自然的方式思考，那么你的思考就是正确的。这让我想到最后一个我想问你的问题。随着世界在技术上变得越来越高效，人们似乎越来越有必要以群体和集体的方式行为。那么，你认为人类最高的发展水平是否可能是将个人的个性融入到一种集体意识中？这很困难，但有可能。我认为将会出现一些反应。
A reaction will set in against this communal dissociation. Man doesn't stand forever his nullification. Once there will be a reaction. And I see it setting in. When I think of my patients, they all seek their own existence and to assure their existence against that complete atomization into nothingness or into meaninglessness, man cannot stand a meaningless life. And I think that the world is more than just a mere.
对此种社会分裂的反应将会出现。人类不会永远忍受自己的被否定。最终一定会有反应。我已经看到了这种反应的开始。当我想到我的病人时，他们都在努力寻找自己的存在，并确保自己的存在不被完全消解成虚无或毫无意义。人类无法忍受毫无意义的生活。我认为，世界并不只是一个简单的存在。